Should a former cashier at The Home Depot have been fired for wearing a button that reads “One nation under God, indivisible”?
We have rules in our society for a reason. Why he was allowed to wear it for a year is problematic, that supervisor should be fired as well. If you can't follow the rules, work somewhere else. And his brother's chosen profession is no excuse either. Go to work to work, people, and leave your personal life at home. More people need to follow that rule!
Bryan - You're a fool. We are not dumb animals. Our ability to think and make choices separates us from nonthinking beasts of burden. If you want to work where you are treated like a slave, then you deserve whatever you get.....just don't force the rest of us to follow your example.
Fisherman144:
Bryan - You're a fool. We are not dumb animals. Our ability to think and make choices separates us from nonthinking beasts of burden. If you want to work where you are treated like a slave, then you deserve whatever you get.....just don't force the rest of us to follow your example.
Let me get this straight. You're responding to a person's giving his requested opinion with name-calling, and accusing him of "forcing" (you) to follow his example. Do you think these behaviors mark you out as a Christian? Think again.
Jesus Himself explicitly said that only those who followed his Teachings were His followers - not those who simply claimed allegiance to Him. What were His Teachings? Oh, yeah!
"Judge not; forgive; do unto others..."
"Judge not; forgive; do unto others..."
Unfortunately,in today's society,this has no meaning.It should read"If you do not get what you want,sue.If you lose,sue again."
It WAS a religious belief, not a simple "patriotic" display. Same as when I complained about a Lowe's employee telling me to have a "blessed" day. DO NOT try to push your religion or your religious beliefs onto others in inappropriate situations. Like at a grave-side funeral service when the preacher tries to recruit people into a religion when they are simply there to pay their respect to a fallen friend. Am I supposed to break into tears and use the casket as a substitute for an alter? No. That's when I walk away from the service, when that crap starts.
Companies can be sued by their customers for the actions of that company's employees. There are times and places for people to display their religion and religious beliefs: Their OWN time and place... and their place of worship.
My usual point of reason on religious beliefs: Would you still feel that he had the right to show/display his religious beliefs if he were a Wiccan, or promoting Satanism? How about if he were Muslim? Can you imagine how customers would have reacted if he wore the same pin except with a Muslim phrase mentioning Allah... wearing it on September 11th? Would you still back him?
Like at a grave-side funeral service when the preacher tries to recruit people into a religion when they are simply there to pay their respect to a fallen friend.
I agree with you, Jim. My own cousin came very close to doing this at my mother's funeral; I was horrified.
Funny how Belief in GOD and our Indivisibility---along with our Morality, and Ethics all seem to degrade at the same rate over time...
Side note-many people share with their pastors what type of service they want for their funerals and so many times the pastor is simply following the wishes of the deceased. It is a sign of disrespect for the family and the deceased to walk out on the service. As a pastor you will not offend me but you may really hurt the family.
Sorry but he has no case and needs to just move on. It's clear the company tried to work with him even offering him another button with a different line from the pledge. He refused. Why for the same reason everyone like him refuses they believe no matter how many warnings or threats they get they will not be fired of what they believe is a simple button, shirt, sign, or any other number of displays. This guy gambled that nothing would happen and he lost.
I LOVE it! Some poor idiot wouldn't even put their reply in this forum.
Subject: Comment on Home Depot Employee
Name: awilborn
Email: awilborn@pure.netMessage:
What you said in your comment is reprehensible. What are you, an athiest. If you want to call me a religious fanatic, I say THANK YOU. Yes I am a faithful "FAN" of OUR "LORD JESUS CHRIST". I DO NOT push my religious beliefs on anyone. I'm just saying have a blessed day. Would you have approved of the button if it said one nation under satan. "GOD'' has BLESSED America for hundreds of years, but now people have turned their backs on ''GOD''. Look and listen at how "BAD" things have gotten. Guess what, SCUBAGOLFJIM, "GOD", is taking "HIS BLESSINGS" away from America. If you don't stand for up for "JESUS", who do stand up for. I SAY TO YOU, MAY "GOD" HAVE MERCY ON YOU. P.S. HOPE YOU HAVE A BLESSED DAY.
My "Blessed" day is when I don't have some weak-minded ideologue trying to force their pathetic crutch on me. So awilborn@pure.net... STFU and GFY. And BTW, You Need Some SERIOUS Help. No. I Mean REAL Help. Drank WAY TOO MUCH kool-aide , eh?
This is a non-story. People get canned for breaking company policies all the time. The headline is misleading; it doesn’t matter what the button said, it was against company dress code. If your employer asks you to adhere to the dress code or any other policy and you refuse, then you can be fired. It has nothing to do with religion or God.
Look, at least in the retail world, when you’re on the clock, you belong to The Man. And even if you’re not on the clock but you’re in uniform, you represent your employer in the eyes of the public. Since you get your paycheck from your employer, who gets the money to pay you from their customers, you should care about this. Retail is highly competitive, and if customers feel the least uncomfortable or offended – no matter how lame the reason – they’ll take their business elsewhere. “The customer is always right – to feel the way they do” and give their business to your competitors.
Do any of you work in a retail store and not have a dress code? And if you do have a dress code, can you wear whatever buttons, pins, stickers, patches, etc. that you want? I doubt it. Home Depot isn’t the only retailer to prohibit personal buttons. You think Lowe’s allows its employees to wear non-sanctioned pins on their uniforms? I work for a retailer, and we are not permitted to wear political or other buttons not provided by the company. Company-approved buttons typically reflect company-run promotions or other ideas having to do with the business. maybe some companies have patriotic pins that they gave to employees after 9/11.
This employee got away with wearing his button for a year, possibly because his store manager didn’t want to deal with it, and it wasn’t until a field manager happened to be in the store at the same time as the employee that he was asked to cease wearing it. You want to be free to express your personal opinions? Then open up your own store. If you’re a free spirit, then the corporate route is not for you.
ScubaGolfJim says "My "Blessed" day is when I don't have some weak-minded ideologue trying to force their pathetic crutch on me. So awilborn@pure.net... STFU and GFY...BTW..."
ScubaGolfJim, I've got the balls to reply to you on this forum!! You are a weak-minded dickhead, and many people know what your insidious acronyms mean, so YOU Shut The @!$%# Up and Go @!$%# Yourself! YOU need some SERIOUS help, REAL help moron! By The Way .... HAVE A BLESSED DAY!!!
For your poor pathetic "mind" Constipated_American...
LOVE the one-shot email:
Subject: WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?
Name: Concerned_American
Email: egan0000@hotmail.comMessage:
I'M WAITING FOR YOU SMART ASS. BRING IT ON! I CAN'T WANT TO HEAR MORE @!$%# FROM YOU!
BTW, WWJD in your place? Would he have gone off like you just did? Yeah. Real christian attitude there spunky.
The acronyms are MEANT to be known dumba$$. And exactly What are you so upset about? For your being so weak minded? As for your claim of me being weak-minded... I do not proclaim praise on some crutch of a deity when something goes well, just like I don't say that same deity"works in mysterious ways" when something bad happens.
So many claim that their "god" is a benevolent "god". Where's the benevolence in a fifteen year-old girl being gang-raped for two hours, while others watched, at a high school dance? Where is it when a child suffers from cancer or a child watches their parent die a horrible death? Surely a benevolent being wouldn't allow the tortuous events in peoples' live we see and hear about every day. Where's the benevolence in a hurricane killing thousands of lives or a tsunami killing hundreds of thousands? Or are you one of the falwell crackpots claiming they 'deserved it.' You're acting like such a christian-type, so.. do you also cry swaggert-style when you have to pay for sex?
The so-called "word of god" was written by MEN. It was made up in an attempt to explain the unexplainable and in a poor attempt to keep people in order, just as the Greeks and Norse did with their gods. Read those stories and the stories from other cultures before christianity and see the similarities. Wow! People came to almost the same conclusions in different areas of the world following different "gods." It's a miracle!
As for more on this actual story: maybe a colleague saw the beginning of something more when he started "reading the bible" at work. Was he possibly reading certain passages out loud, but "under his breath?" Those he might think "meant something" about certain co-workers? Might someone have noticed his David Koresh-type mentality brewing? That type of behavior often happens just before someone "snaps." Someone always complains that they noticed it or someone should have noticed it and did nothing about it.
I do not try to keep anyone from their beliefs. However, I do not stand idly by while others try to force their beliefs onto me. That is the reason for my statements above. Would I simply cower in fear of your wrath constipated? Definitely NOT!
Is THAT enough TRUTH for you constipated_American? (I believe the first part there, just not the last. America is about Freedom, even for people like you. And I don't say you're an idiot for your beliefs, just how you practice your own beliefs, as evidenced above.)
ScubaGolfJim....so much anger, contempt and hatred. You scare me more than someone openly practicing their faith. I went to my local Home Depot today and I saw all sorts of employees wearing buttons with sports teams, smiley faces etc. Some had many buttons attached to lanyards around their necks. I think that this has nothing to do with violating a dress code, but Home Depot did not want to be viewed as supporting this employees views by allowing him to wear it because of the religious statement is made. Everyone is so concerned about offending people. Get over it. You can make ANYTHING your religion...food, sports, sex, education whatever you want. What next? Will proper dress codes now prohibit the wearing of a cross, Star of David, Ankh or other religious symbols? All great civilizations have fallen....where are we headed?
For a private business, a dress code is a dress code.
Don't we have many, many rules we follow everyday that we don't like?
Of course we do.
Be an adult and wear the button when you clock out....or don't work at Home Depot.
Brian, Yes we have rules and one of them is that you CAN NOT interfer with freedom OF religion.....or the PRACTACE there off
Your constitutional right to practice your religion ends when you enter a place of business and start work. Unless you work for a church, or a religious oriented business like a christian bookstore or something, no business owner in his right mind will allow the expression of religious ideas on the premises. There is too much potential for one person of faith to offend another person of faith or a customer of a different faith for this "practice of religion" to be allowed. No one can stop you from the practice of religion on you own time, but when you are working, keep your bible in your locker, and your efforts directed at completing your work, or you can, legally, be fired.
What happened to freedom of speech. I think we have more problems in this world than a Button!
#3 - Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:20 AM EDTFreedom of speech does not give you the right to wear a button at work, no matter what it says. Employers have the right to make dress code rules. The employee was insubordinate and broke a long-standing rule that he was fully aware of when he was hired. Now that he has been fired, he can wear his button all the time if he so chooses, but if he is hired somewhere else where they have a similar dress code, he cannot wear it at work. It is no different than a dress code that says you must wear a suit and tie and no jeans or sneakers. If you don't like the dress code, you don't have to work there. You have the freedom to leave and wear whatever you want.
Would you be saying the same if he wore a button saying praise the prophet Muhammed? I think not. Right wingnuts aren't consistent
We gave our constitutional rights to employers. That is the problem here. A Hindu may or may not be allowed to wear their turban at work. If they are allowed to wear it they are letting everyone in contact with them that they are Hindu. If they are american they have a RIGHT to do so. The same with this young man. The fact that they let him wear it for a year tells me that they were probably looking to save money by firing some people and thats what they did. How does a button offend people? Ludicrous. I'll tell you whats offensive: people walking around in jeans that are 5 inches below their bellybuttons showing their cracks at everybody yet people think its okay.
Once again, a turban is not a religious symbol, just a hat. Stop trying to use this argument.
Mike, fyi : "In Western countries, men wearing turbans are likely to be Sikhs, whose religion requires them to cover their uncut hair" ergo, a religious symbol.
{source, Wikipedia}
Not a freedom of speech issue at all. If he weren't allowed to wear the button walking down the street, you'd have a point. But this is a private place of business, they have rules. They tried to be accomodating by giving him an approved patriotic button to wear and he said no. He made a choice; choices have consequences.
he violated the dress code and refused to follow it, that is grounds to be fired.this is from the article, the home depot side of the story.
"This associate chose to wear a button that expressed his religious beliefs. The issue is not whether or not we agree with the message on the button," Craig Fishel said. "That's not our place to say, which is exactly why we have a blanket policy, which is long-standing and well-communicated to our associates, that only company-provided pins and badges can be worn on our aprons."
Fishel said Keezer was offered a company-approved pin that said, "United We Stand," but he declined.
he still had an opportunity to support his country with an approved button but the employee refused. actually it doesn't seem he has a leg to stand on.
I have a number of acquaintances who are of the Jehovah Witness faith.
The don't celebrate holidays, so at work we absolutely do not put any kind of holiday decorations anywhere, under any circumstance.
And I'm fine with that. I can come home to, for example, my own Christmas Tree and decorations and no one is offended!
Ah, another uneducated person, like Paylin', bellowing about "the First Amendment" while not understanding it at all. I guess not actually reading the First Amendment yourself leads some to be gullible enough to not realize the truth of it.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Vince-1182325
What's so funny is a little while ago there was a seed and vote on if a man should be allowed to change the name of his employees . The vote and seed was inspired by a white man changing the more complicated names of some of his Latin employees so it would be easier on customers. I bet many who are all outraged here are the same that voted and said it was ok in that case because it was the man's business and he could do what he wanted.
It's not a freedom of speech issue ... Home depot isn't the government ...
If he wore a badge saying "Pride" the ACLU would defend his right to wear that. But since this country is overwhelmingly a country who supports Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims the 5% aethists win out over the 95% who believe in God. I always thought the majority ruled, but anymore in the USA only the smallest minority opinions win. I myself will no longer shop at Home Depot since Lowes offers a similar line of products. Boycott this aethist company which has no backbone to support God. On their deathbed the Home Depot executives will call for God to help them.
#4 - Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:22 AM EDTThe policy was clear, the warnings were adequate. Fight to have the policy changed if you want, but in the meantime, a directive from your superiors can't be ignored without consequences just because you think you have a good reason. The firing was just.
#5 - Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:22 AM EDTThere is a place for religious practices and it is not the workplace. I am offended by the assumption by Christians in America that theirs is the only religion that counts and that they should be able to display it at work. Have Christians not read the Bible? Jesus encouraged private religious practice and condemned public displays of piety as hypocritical.
Matthew 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Matthew 6: 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
People have the Right to read the Bible where and when they want. Your telling people that they can't do so puplically smacks of communism.
Edwin... you are sooo wrong, but way to throw in the conservative buzz word du jour...
Home Depot is a private entity and can decide its rules for its employees under the bounds of the law.
Under the theocracy that you believe in apparently, he should have been allowed to ignore his customers in order to read his Bible.
You might want to read the whole book of Matthew, we are also not supposed to "Hide our light under a bushel." He shouldn't have worn the button if it was against the dress code, but I find it interesting that it wasn't a problem until he read his Bible at work. Pretty soon, we will be like certain countries, where Christians will no longer even be able to say what we believe without threat of prison or death. And no one wants to remember, we WERE founded on Christian principles, to be a country that does not persecute for our beliefs...that goes for other religions also, but they are not being persecuted at this time.
Jen
A very typical response from the mentally weak. You took what I said and blew it out of purportion. fyi, I'm an athiest.
Home depot did not have rules against any kind of reading material.
Edwin .....turn off Beck........ what does reading the Bible and communism have to do with the policies of a PRIVATE ( NOT communist) company......
Strange that one who proclaims to be "offended by the assumption by the Christians in America that theirs is the only religion that counts..." would also be one who quotes from the very source she objects to. Anyone can quote something from the Bible to justify his/her argument, but Satan does the same thing. God IS the only creator. May he forgive all who denounce Him.
Vince
Get out from under olbermans desk. What does anything you just said have to do with anything?
Linda C, everyone has a right to express their beliefs and thoughts or is it only you and people who think like you who have that right? Just because you choose to do so " in the closet ..." doesn't mean everyone else should as well. I don't care if its judaism, muslim, hinduism, etc. Everyone has a right to worship and to freedom of speech in the USA. If you feel offended you have a right to SAY so but that does not make YOUR view the right one. The wearing of a button does not impose anything; it merely states a belief. I believe that we have given the private sector too much control of our constitutional rights and therefore I believe that that is where the problem lies.
Edwin-452-090"
People have the Right to read the Bible where and when they want. Your telling people that they can't do so puplically smacks of communism.
What does any of this have to do with the right to read the Bible? Or communism?
I take it you are unemployed.
Christian35 misses the point. The former employee started reading his bible at work which probably tipped the scale for the company. I believe the former employee was allowed to wear the button for a year without hassle because the company preferred to not make an issue out of it. His bringing in the bible and reading it on company property is what tipped the scale toward the button being a religious expression, not a patriotic one. "In GOD we Trust" or "One Nation under GOD, indivisible" are both universally recognized as American patriotic expressions having religious undertones.
For those of you reading this, please don't misunderstand. This former employee has every right to his personal religious beliefs, but not the right to violate company policy. If it was truly only about patriotism then the company approved button should have sufficed. But it was clearly about more than that. One persons religious beliefs should not be indulged over those of any other persons. Until we as citizens of this great Republic understand the basic truth, that freedom of belief and speech extends even to those we disagree with, we will always have this problem. Yes, we have the right to our own personal religious beliefs. We do not have the right to say that our personal religious beliefs should be respected at the cost of offending someone who has a different religious belief than our own.
Respect others in order to receive respect, or put another way "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".
.Linda
then why do they let muslims pray 5 times a day in some work places.
Should not Christians have the same rights.
This will get me into trouble. You do not have the right to be offended.
Well said Michael. The Golden Rule is what most people forget about because most people nowadays go about their lives with a sense of entitlement.
"There is a place for religious practices and it is not the workplace." My response was to that. People are free to do what they want on their own time.
Telling someone they can't is dictator ship, adding in being anti-religion brings up communism. Read a little history, one of the 1st thing commies do is outlaw religion.
Edwino,
Wearing the pin in public, where customers can view it, was NOT on his "own" time. Me, I would have complained to the management that it was inappropriate to be worn at work and would not have shopped the store again. All of your ramblings are so dumb it's ridiculous. A privately operated company can, and does, dictate the actions, and attire, of their employees. Most even have clauses in their Code of Conduct that allows them to be released for actions during their off hours that reflect poorly upon the company.
Grow up and join the Real world here.
As for John,
Read your own post:
then why do they let muslims pray 5 times a day in some work places.
Should not Christians have the same rights.
This will get me into trouble. You do not have the right to be offended.
Line #1: You stated "in some" workplaces. You answered yourelf
Line #2: Christians are not "required" by their religion to pray at specific times. Even "saying the blessing" is not "required". Are companies supposed to be forced to allow them to break out in prayer at any given moment?
Line #3: Makes NO sense at all. I DO have the right to NO be offended in a store. While I have the right to not patronize the store anymore, I also have the right to complain to the management about that which offended me. And I WOULD HAVE complained about his religious display.
And PEOPLE: READ the First Amendment.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
While The Home Depot is a powerful economic player, it is NOT Congress. In a FREE society, I AM able to restrict the actions of my employees.
Poor Keezer. He doesn't feel complete until he shows off his devotion and he will treat his firing as a pseudo self-flagellation. I shudder to think what other acts he commits to show his love.
Bless you. Thanks but I would rather be lucky.
Actually one of my least desires would be to read the book of matthew. As far as presecution I find it sooo interesting that the complainers of persecution belong to the greatest single purveyor of persecution in all of human history...the christians
Christian35. Unless he was CLOCKED OUT for his "lunch"... which I highly doubt as most employees are alloted a 30 min lunch on COMPANY TIME... that means he was on COMPANY TIME. Therefore still subject to COMPANY RULES. A bible has NO PLACE in the work place. Especially not while "on the clock" even if it was his break or lunch break.
PS... this country was NOT founded on Christian principles. Educate yourself. Repeating a lie over and over does NOT make it true.
I wonder if Home Depot accepts currency that says "In God We Trust." Just wondering!
scuBabOObAgolfwhatever: Pity to the poor folks who work for you. Bet they are all wishing they had a different opportunity than working for a f#%$*ing tyrant like you. Like I said before, you are a dickhead.... You like to put people down for their beliefs. What's the matter, not use to someone putting your pussy ass down. Well now it is MY turn to express my rage toward you. I would NEVER work for a prick like you. What wonderful company do you own mr corporate executive? Guess your wallet is FAT enough that you feel you can bash people who disagree with you, huh smart ass? I'd like to see how smart ass you are if I could put my veteran fist down your @!$%#in' throat you traitor communist!
I expect a real nasty reply from you later today which you are SO good at with other posters who disagree with you, you @!$%#head punk, SO BRING IT ON YOU SCUM!
Better yet, find me and come onto my property and see how long you live!!! I'll show you MY corporate exec: His name is MR 12-GAUGE MOSSBERG, and he would just love to address his concerns with YOU!!!! I hope you do go to HELL
OOOHHH... I'm being Threatened!! I'm SCARED of Mr. Constipated_American. I'm shaking in my actual combat boots.
Constipated, if I came to your place MY veteran fist would be on you before you knew I was even there dumba$$. OOOOHHH. A 12-Gauge MOSSBERG!! Is that ALL a redneck-christian boy like you can pilfer? My firepower, and word-power, is VASTLY SUPERIOR to yours bozo. You like to threaten posters with physical violence. Good christian attitude there.
Come down out of the bell tower weakling. A 12-Gauge isn't viable from 170 feet up. OMFG. (Bet you got that one too, eh?) He told me to go to hell. SUCH a great christian attitude there constipated.
But you are a paradox: so constipated, but the diarrhea crap just keeps flowing out of your mouth. You're supposed to put the suppository in your a$$hole numb-nutts. But I understand... you just can't tell the difference.
Linda, Linda, Linda.....you are good a quoting parts of scripture and ignoreing the rest, like:
Luke 18:1 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;
Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Ephesians 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
1 Thessalonians 5: 17 Pray without ceasing.
You object to his button but would likely be one of the first to yell if it had of been a Muslum head scarf and veil......
Concerned American, I'm going to find you, I'm going to find your children and wife, and I'm going to gut you all.
I actually think that even thinking those thoughts is disgusting never mind actually putting them down for all to see. How would you like it if everyone you know started saying that to you?
I think that thinking thoughts like the ones you express is disgusting never mind actually putting them down for all to see. I am certain that you would not like to be persecuted in this way so why do you think it is acceptagble for you to behave in this way?
Would it be ok if it said "One nation under Allah, indivisible?" I'm sure most Americans would have a problem with that. He should respect the rules.
#8 - Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:29 AM EDTMost Christians (like myself) would not have a problem with "One nation under Allah, indivisible". Only the arrogant and judgemental Christians, who believe that the only way to salvation is their particular variant of Christianity, would be offended.
Just because the majority of people who go through his line would not be offended, does not mean that someone wasn't, or wouldn't be. He was offered a different pin that was also "supporting his country" but did not mention God...by refusing to wear that one, he fired himself. As an atheist, I can tell you I wouldn't be allowed to support my country with a pin that said "under no God".
Many people forget that the words "under God" were added to the currency and government oaths/pledges, etc in the 50's during the big communist scare and the conservative uprising. Our founding fathers didn't put it there, so we should stop pretending they did to score a political point and pick up a history book instead. I hope he sues and this goes to the supreme court, then we can finally realize that "under God" should never have been inserted into our government institutions, signage and that separation of church and state was violated 50-60 years ago. Go ahead, sue...I dare you.
#9 - Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:29 AM EDTMike - I agree completely. I hope this guy does sue, and is promptly laughed right out of court. It is totally irrelevant what the button says. He violated policy, he got fired. This is no different than a person who wears sneakers or jeans when they aren't allowed. He can wear anything he wants in his free time, but he has no right to be promoting a religious belief while he is working.
Any responsible company would have done the same thing. I think you would be hard pressed to find ANY private business that would be OK with a button that promoted a religious belief. If you allow one kind of button, you would have to allow all, right? So if a Christian statement is acceptable, Muslim, Jewish and Satanists statements should be allowed as well.
And when he said that he was fired for being "patriotic" he is being at best disingenuous and at worst, a total liar. When he was offered a patriotic pin that didn't mention god, he refused it.
Simple solution: either follow the policies set by the company, or FIND ANOTHER JOB. The arrogance of Christians in this country never ceases to amaze me.
Mike and Danielle; I agree too. I also think the "patriotic" defense is just fabricated to twist the reason why he was REALLY fired. No way would he have been allowed to wear the pin for a YEAR, and then suddenly be fired for it. The pin was an excuse to finally get rid of him. I doubt it had anything to do with "public" approval or disapproval. I've occasionally worked in unhappy environments where employees are in a situation of having to put up with one fellow worker who makes life miserable for everyone who HAS to work alongside him/her. (You know, the hypochondriac who's always 'sick', the chronic complainer, the nonstop gossiper, etc.) My personal peeve were people who did their job wrong or inefficiently, and I'd work twice as hard doing my job and fixing HIS. Every day I would say why don't they get rid of this worthless jerk? Whose butt is he kissing to keep his job? Of course, unless a fellow worker came forward with a reason, none of us (the readers) will ever know what this guy might have been doing that annoyed his fellow employees, but companies should have the courage to say, "We're letting you go because you make everybody around you uncomfortable and unhappy." But they don't, they wait until they have (or think they have) a solid reason. I guess "You p1ss off your fellow workers, and they're miserable!" isn't a fireable offense, although it should be. So the last resort is "You violated company policy." But then they risk the "Ooo, what a TERRIBLY MEAN company!" charge, like you're seeing in a lot of these comments.
"I hope this guy does sue, and is promptly laughed right out of court. It is totally irrelevant what the button says."
Danielle; Actually, when you think about it, what the button says IS relevant, and very very clever. It's part of the Pledge of Allegiance, the part with "God" in it. As obvious by his refusal to switch pins, it WAS the "God" part he was pushing. But now, to defend his position, he's describing it as a "patriotic" pin, and that he was victimized for displaying his "Patriotism". I can imagine his mindset when they asked him to switch pins and he refused. Without a doubt, he thought "They wouldn't DARE fire me, because they know I'd sue playing the "Patriotism" card and win!" I hope Home Depot doesn't settle out of court. I want to see if this guy's lawyer can find a court gullible enough to buy into his argument.
You forget that you have no standing here when it comes to legalities in accordance with the Constitution.
I see this as religious persecution. It's odd that he wore the button for a year; but when he started to bring the Bible to work to read -- ON HIS LUNCH BREAK (personal time!!!) .... that's when he was fired????
If you read the story closely --- that's the conclusion. The point is that the button was not a problem --- until he brought a Bible to read on his own time.
That -- people -- IS religious persecution --- plain and simple!!!
#10 - Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:30 AM EDTNo one is asking him to change his religion. Companies have the right to establish and enforce dress codes. If this button was advocating any religion other than Christianity, i think a lot less people would be siding with him. You are just letting your religious beliefs cloud your thinking. This issue is black and white.. he was asked not to wear a button on his uniform and he refused to follow the rules. It doesn't matter what the button said, I'd have fired the guy too.
You are making an assumption that will be very difficult to prove in court. You cannot read his employer's mind and neither can a judge or jury. Regardless of that, he refused a directive that his superior was within his rights to give. He violated an established dress code and refused to desist. That is insubordination and he should have been fired.
No one is asking him to change his religion.
They are just demanding that he doesn't read his own Bible on his own personal time.
That is ok.
In our 'free' country.
We have religious freedom to worship. As long as we are not Christians.
The guy was fired for insubordination... plain and simple. They told him not to do something, that it violated the rules, he continued to do it, he was fired.
And now, he is a matyr for the "persecuted Christians" in this country. What a laugh. Christians are NOT being persecuted in this country!
Please.............I own a company , you work for me , you follow the rules. He can worship any God or faith he believes ON HIS OWN TIME.
Aren't you at all embarrassed by your ignorance.
The US is a SECULAR country and if you think this is religious persecution I truly feel sorry for you having to go thru life with the inability to have a cognizant thought
An employer buys your time to do his bidding. If in all the 24 hours you need to read the Bible during the time the employer required your services then you had no business applying for the job in the first place. If you can't put the Bible down then enter the priesthood.
Likely, there is more to the story that brought this employee's behavior to the spotlight. Yes, he wore the button for a year and it wasn't mentioned. Then, he began bringing a Bible to work to read. A likely third step might be that he began sharing his beliefs with coworkers and made some of them feel uncomfortable, because I don't believe an employer would make an issue of someone quietly reading the Bible during their break. So it seems that his behavior was escalating beyond simply expressing patriotism with a button.
I am sure he was well-intentioned, but you have to be careful about even seeming to push your ideas on others at work, even if you think it's innocent. It can be disruptive and divisive and lead to an inharmonious workplace.
"but when he started to bring the Bible to work to read -- ON HIS LUNCH BREAK (personal time!!!) ...."
As far as I know Home Depot employees don't clock out for meal breaks. That means they're still on COMPANY TIME. Therefore it is NOT "his" time. He is on COMPANY PROPERTY, on COMPANY TIME. The "bible" is a RELIGIOUS icon, it's NOT a book or a magazine. If I were an employee and someone pulled out a bible in the breakroom I would be offended. The bible, q'uran, Talmud/Torah, Book of Mormon, political materials or anything else that can be "deemed offensive" should be kept at HOME and NOT allowed into the workplace which should be a COMPLETELY NEUTRAL environment. By him bringing his bible to work he was covertly proselytizing and that is EXTREMELY offensive to many people who are not Christian.
gemini,
Just wondering, but, how exactly is reading a book on lunch break EXTREMELY offensive to others? Just because he chooses to read a book on his lunch break does NOT mean he is cramming religion down other people's throats. He is simply doing it for his own enjoyment.
God Bless,
Elizabeth
Short question, if it was a magazine about BDSM and contained no pictures, do you think he would have been told his reading material was inappropriate? If he were reading a book entitled, "How to Pray the Atheist Way", do you think someone would have been offended? My point is that the book he was reading could be offensive.
It is my personal experience that too many, but by no means all, Christians will assume everyone else is as well and have no problem making little comments about it. They aren't intended to be snide comments. The comments show an assumption and that is where it gets uncomfortable. The two options are to vaguely agree with them or state that is not your religious opinion.
Religion is a private conversation. It can be entered into by any two people, co-workers, family, yourself and your G/god. It can only be a good conversation when both parties, whether they agree with each other or not, want to be part of the conversation. As inoffensive as some comments may try to be, stating them starts a conversation I may not want to be part of. The clerk who says, "Blessed be," is trying to be nice. I appreciate that, but I didn't come in wanting to think about religion, I came in to buy a hammer.
Side note: the most interesting and enlightening conversations I've had have been from a variety of religions with people who didn't mention their choices on a day to day basis (no "I love Allah" T-shirts or bible verses on their checks), but when it did come up, showed a willingness to talk or let it lie. Not having it in my face let the walls come down and the curiousity come out. I have learned more about Christianity from those people than I have from all the people that have knocked on my door, shoved a pamphlet in my hand, and worn the shirts that say, "it's the reason for the season." I'm not saying you shouldn't do those things, it is your right to do each and every one of those things, but don't expect that it's going to open up any minds. I do find it interesting that it is the christian churches and groups that do that. I don't think I've had a single pamphlet handed to me, not a single knock on the door, by a non-christian. Maybe that's why the pin is so offensive, the constant bombardment.
Break the rules, lose your job. Disobey, lose your job. Claim religious persecution, suddenly you have a shot at a lawsuit.
He was clearly offered a company approved patriotic option that he refused. This wasn't about being patriotic it was about displaying his religious views which is not okay in the work environment. If you don't like the company policy, find a new job. Go to work for a church if you want your religion to be a part of your work environment. He was being paid to work. When he was hired he was given the dress code policy which he would have been required to sign.
#11 - Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:31 AM EDTFunny how the button didn't become an issue until he started reading a bible on his personal time ! Maybe Home Depot prefers good ol tolerant Muslims to buy their stuff. Since Obama wasn't American born, mayeb we can elect the Prime Minister of Australia to set things right again.
#12 - Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:31 AM EDT...More birther stuff? I thought that died out. Wishful thinking on my part, I guess.
It has nothing to do with religion. Yes, they should've said something when he first started wearing the button, why they did not is beyond me. Stupid on their part as well. However, he was offered another button to wear. He refused, meaning he went against an order. That's why he was fired.
You are one stupid person and probably were hatched in America,like Rush Limpwrist
Since Obama wasn't American born
I read something the other day about how native Hawaiians don't think their statehood was done legally and they don't want to be one. Wouldn't it be funny if they decide to pursue that line of thought.....that would mean, for sure, the president was not born in America....I'd like to see what would happen if they push this issue.
Hawaii isn't part of America? I guess I should have paid better attention in Geography class. Or maybe in conspiracy theory class...
Wow, I am amazed that anyone would publicly declare their ignorance on a public forum.
Yeah, most people declare their ignorance sticking to their party while voting, as if their party is all righteous.
I see dumb people.
No wonder you are 1 Angry American, You don't even know where our President was born. You know listening to gossip is one thing but believing it is quite another. Get your facts straight before you get angry.
amazing how many people defend the kid, and "religious" freedom. Company policy has APPROVED pins to wear, that include patriotic support. Loves his country. Great. Why have "god" in the pin unless he is pushing religion. I don't want to see or know what someone elses religious preference is. That means they are subtly pushing it. I hate that. As far as the people saying it is in the pledge of allegiance. It was NOT in the original version. Religious zealots got it put in after the fact, years later. Garbage.
#13 - Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:33 AM EDTOh but you would yell if it had of been a head scarf and veil......
Ignoring your rant about the pledge, look at the Constitution....you have no standing under it for your opinion.
In this day and age of unemployment and all that goes along with it... TAKE THE DAMN BUTTON OFF! When you accept a job you play by their rules however many hours a day you work. After that wear as many buttons as you want, read the bible from morning till night, that is your right.
When you are at work your focus is what the company wants, even if it flies in the face of your own ideals. That is the sad truth that most adults have come to realize but that this kid just learned the hard way.
Hopefully God will help him find another job, but considering that he just got himself fired and caused a media storm to boot.. odds are companies are going to shred this kids resume as soon as they recognize the name. Good luck kid.. join the rest of America praying for a job.
#14 - Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:35 AM EDTIt's a uniform. He has to follow their rules. I spent 22 years in the Navy and never once did I have the option to amend my uniform with patriotic sayings or slogans. As both a Christian and a veteran I appreciate his fervor, but he must also understand that he must conform to the rules of his private employer. He knew what the dress code was and it was administered fairly to all staff members.
We are not living in 1776, our culture, values and laws have changed. If he truly believes in what this country stands for, he will accept his dismissal and not litigate something that was clearly explained to him as part of his employment.
#15 - Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:35 AM EDTQuestion?
What if a company requred you to wear Christian flair, like if home depot were owned by people that believed in god (Christianity). If you refused to do that, should you be fired?
To John;
No, you should quit. Wait, let me amend that...you shouldn't have been stupid enough to take a job that went against your principles in the first place.
In all workplaces there are dress codes (from uniforms to casual to formal), if they are in conflict with your beliefs then don't accept the job. While on the payroll you are a representative of your company. If you don't like their policies or rules you know where the door is. They offered you a job with conditions, you are not entitled to a job on your terms unless you own the company!
You have a job, you follow that company's rules or you leave. That's the price you pay for being allowed to work. What makes him think he's different than other people. And the button is religious, because that line wasn't added to the pledge until 1954. Check link on the history of the pledge: http://oldtimeislands.org/pledge/pledge.htm
#16 - Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:36 AM EDTYou have a job, you follow that company's rules or you leave
I am wondering how many of the commenters on this thread are some of the same ones who think the hotel owner in (where was it...) Arizona/New Mexico (can't recall right now)......is wrong to make his employees speak English and change their names. I mean.... you have a job - you follow the rules of that company. Seems pretty simple to me, but a lot of comments were against the "company" on that one.
Apples and oranges? Nope, that is another case where we have given too much control of our constitutional rights to the private sector. Same thing.
KW-463491,
Please don't go there in this discussion. There is a world of difference between changing someones name and/or language and the display of religious material in violation of a company policy.
One is a human rights issue, the other a religious rights issue.
HalfbloodPrinces-##### please provide the section of the 1st amendment (I'm assuming that's the constitutional right you're referencing) that you believe has been "given" to the private sector. Try quoting the section you believe is at issue as opposed to just throwing generalities out there.
KW you're right, clearly those that say a person should conform to a reasonable dress code policy request (regardless of how long the person was allowed to break that dress code) would be required to also support my new small business which has a policy of bonding my employees into serfdom--I mean, certainly it's an all or nothing situation.
1 Opinion, are we not in the USA? What other constitution did you think would affect this case? I am referring to the First Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
But Congress has made no law here, Princess. Private institutions can restrict free speech any way they see fit.
I agree that Home Depot has probably overreacted in this case, but that doesn't mean they don't have the right to react as they see fit.
thelyamhound, which is my point in my post above; we have given too much control to the private sector of our rights. Like the man in NM wanting people to change their name {although the speaking of spanish is reasonable for communication purposes}. What next then? You don't think like me so I am going to fire you? Would that be okay too just because its a private company?
Maybe not okay, Princess, but it would be legal; what's more, it should be legal. If not, companies couldn't function according to conscience.
I believe in absolute moral and religious neutrality on the part of government, but I think there needs to be some amount of wiggle room in the private sector, to everyone's benefit. Otherwise, how would political arts groups (for instance) maintain missions statements?
Thats my point thelyamhound, it is not okay. Right to work states give companies in the private sector too much leeway to fire people for any reason that are disguised as 'within the law' reasons and not with just merit. People believe they are 'entitled' to things instead of earning them. The right to say what we believe in and to practice a religion should be a right that should remain in the private sector and not at their discretion. A button does not a mind turn. He was not preaching to anyone. Its his belief/thought and should be respected. My belief is that this should change in the workplace.
It's an interesting thought, Princess, but fundamentally impractical. How does a gay theater company allow employees to express anti-gay views? How does it behoove a church to have mass interrupted by dissenters in the ranks?
I agree that the allowance is applied too broadly, but it's there for a reason.
For HalfBrainPrincess,
Grow the other half please. ALL businesses have guidelines within which employees must conform, including any unfortunate enough to have hired you before requiring an IQ and Civics test.
As for Free Speech, as I've already alluded to elsewhere in this forum, would it have been okay if he said F&*K You" to each customer also?
Welllll, so much for your Free Speech theory.
home depot and everybody who agrees with company policy on something so small is
retarded the manager should be fired
#17 - Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:38 AM EDTit is amazing god is not allowed but mohammad is. all of a sudden they enforce a code i bet some who hates this country and god said something. it 1% of they people who complain and make rules for the other 99%. and if i complain about a muslim spreading there lies or beliefs it's racism. and all those that don't have a belief in god leave those that do alone. i don't complain about you. leave me my christmas, my beliefs, my religion to me. and if you all forgot people came here to be free to practice what they believe.
#18 - Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:39 AM EDTApparently Home Depot agrees with your last point. People should be free to practice what they believe. it isn't Home Depot's job to tell you what religion you should be.... thus the no religious buttons policy.
I would be happy to leave your beliefs to you, if only you wouldn't try to shove them down everyone else's throats. You are not 99% of the people, not even close, and the rules are made to protect everyone from being forced to endure a religion they don't agree with. You are free to practice your religion in private, but you are not free to flaunt it at work. Even Jesus preached against the public display of piety and called it hypocritical.
Mohammad isn't allowed either, your argument is a fallacy from the start. And no, a turban is not a religious symbol, just a hat...just like a beard is not a religious symbol either. Now if someone wore a red/white/blue turban with "GO USA! Praise ALLAH" in big flashy letters on it...they should get fired too.
And no, you're wrong to say 1% make the rules for the other 99%...and by the way, non-religious folks are now about 20% of the American population. We're not making rules for you, we're just trying to get fair and equal treatment under the rules you(the religious christian majority) have established long ago.
Nobody is saying you can't have your religious ideas, your beliefs, your christmas...just don't take it to work like this idiot.
No, the no button policy was not important enough to enforce for a whole year, UNTIL he started reading his bible on his break. Suddenly the 'policy' was SOOOO important.
Carmen, you would have a case IF he took the button off per their request and was fired anyway. HE REFUSED! When your boss tells you that you have to comply with company policy, you have to comply with company policy... it really doesn't matter how long it takes for them to do it. If you refuse you are gone.
The story certainly spins it that he was told to remove the button AFTER he started bringing his Bible to work and reading it at lunch. And that he refused to do so, in defiance of company policy. These are subjective statements, and we have no way of knowing what other facts have been omitted from this story.
I can appreciate his desire to wear the button, and I personally see no problem with it. But the company policy dictates what is allowable in the workplace. If he wants to pursue a lawsuit, and allege that the company allowed the button for a year, thus granting de facto permission to wear it despite stated policy, then feel free. He amay even succeed in having the policy altered because of the company's failure to enforce the policy as written.
But if he refused to do as he was told by a superior, and pursued no other recourse based on the above - and this story does not really give us all the information we really need to know to decide if he was treated wrongly, and if he acted properly - then the company has the right to fire him for insubordination. There are a lot of ways he could have acted and pursued his alleged "right" to wear the button at work, while complying at least temporarily with policy until the issue was decided. But apparently he chose to be defiant, and if so, it seems that his termination was just.
Actually they came here to be free from the church not to worship it. When you accept a job you leave your right to free speech at the door. All these bible thumpers would have a fit if his button said ALLAH AKKBAR. Oh by the way Muslim is a practiciner of Islam not a race
I will bet you believe it is okay to spread your lies and beliefs because they are Christian lies and beliefs. The percentages of athiests in this country are growing at a phenomenal rate and that only takes into account those that actually can admit what they really believe. Don't forget how an admitted atheist can be disowned by a family, fired for the nonconforning belief and a whole lot of other ramifications.
Just when they're getting ready to launch the Martha Stewart line. Wonder what that's going to do to their sales. Home Depot should be ashamed of themselves. There is nothing offensive about wearing the button. I am boycoting Home Depot until they issue an apology to this young man, offer him his job back, and change their policy.
#19 - Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:41 AM EDTMartha has a line coming to HomeDepot? And I wont have to be around judgemental people while I shop? Thanks for the heads up, I'm headed to HomeDepot
So to be clear.....now turn off Beck for a moment..... you are boycotting a private company because they have a dress code......
"There is nothing offensive about wearing the button" I shop home depot and the button offends ME...............
Vince, then don't look. "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never harm".
It's not about offensive or not, as a representative of his employer it is his job to represent them as they see fit. If it means he wears a tutu and tiara then it is his job. If he doesn't like it, he is free to quit. They do not owe him any accommodation for his opinions while representing them.
You guys are idiots! Dont you understand what policies and procedures are? He broke the rules....end of story! If your kid wore his hat to the dinner table after you prohibited it...would you let him slide because its "just a hat"....i dont think so!
#20 - Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:42 AM EDTHe wasn't verbally offending anyone with it. If he had been reading the Coran would it have brought the attention to him like the Bible did and therefore give reason to fire him for a button he was wearing. Obviously no one had a problem with the button until he started reading his Bible at work. As far as rules our society runs by, that's a joke. It's okay for some to state their political and religious opinions, but anything to do with God and country is off limits. Don't tell me there isn't a double standard. People of faith (in the one true God) are discriminated against all the time and it's okay. Just another politically correct company. I won't be doing any business there. I'll buy my new carpet somewhere else.
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He was insubordinate- I don't care what the button said. GONE!