And what happens if one goes down even with these measures? The TSA is creating a bigger target right there at the security check in.

By his own admission "

Pistole noted that those getting body searches constitute "a very small percent" of the 34 million people who have flown since the new policy went into effect."

Explain to me how this does ANYTHING to find some kind of underwear explosive when this check is done at "random" on a teeny-tiny percentage of the flying public.....They must be just hoping without any reasonable expectation to catch someone ??......This isn't safety or security....it's a crap-shoot ......Either PROFILE those most likely to want to cause us harm or scrap the whole scanner/molestation program....

The terrorists already laugh, they have eliminated the 4th Amendment in the Bill of Rights.

We have become a nation of cowards while our Military fights and dies. We allow are women and children to be molested because we are scared of the boogie man.

Alcohol abuse kills 75,000 each year. Over 70 women are raped every hour in the US. The list goes on.

Mike - Yeah I don't agree with "random" screenings. If someone refuses the detector I can see needing an alternative but just pulling random people over is profiling which can be dangerous. Sometimes people will use young attractive women as carriers. So if she is standing next to someone of Muslim decent and they pull the Muslim over out of racial profiling - they done messed up!

Also, people shove stuff in weird places. If they refuse a scan, how is a pat down going to find that? They run their fingers in those areas but they don't do anything to detect an object IN a specific area. Scanning would be the only way to go - they just can't be douchey about people with disabilities/pacemakers/etc. Those people just need a medical card stating they have "this" implanted and such.

Profiling works.

Sometimes it works, but if you eff it up it can come back on you as discrimination or racism. Things aren't always what they seem.

The terrorists have won. They've shown to the world what a bunch of crybabies Americans are.

Hey ajf - You are so full of it!!! Well trained dogs can spot a terrorist in seconds, this procedure is total bullsh*t. Seems pretty suspect, within 10 years, no planes have blown up from terrorists!! This set up is all about control and has nothing to do with terrorism!!!

Some of us feel that the TSA has crossed the line. I guess the rest of you are waiting for the cavity searches to say so.

Well, for someone who earlier suggested this - I _DO— have a card, stating that I have a knee replacement. It has NOT done me a bit of good over the last few years - always get scanned with their little metal detector, in front of the world. However, last May was a whole new ballgame... After waiting for 45 minutes for a female TSA (who was obviously at lunch, and certainly not happy about being called to the gate), I received what must have certainly been the early-training version of their new method of scanning - the metal detector was used for the groin area - I was wearing jeans, the detector was literally jabbed into my crotch! I was astounded, but late for the gate and did not feel that calling a supervisor would be beneficial (after all, it had taken 45 minutes to even get this TSA person to come and do her job!). The intimidation level, at this point, was a major factor.

I was "felt" all over, breasts were thoroughly searched by touching, all this, even tho the metal detector obviously was only sounding at the right knee (as my medical card from the doctor indicates.) And this was all done in a glass-cage in full view of all coming through the security checkin. I was so embarrassed and cannot bring myself to go through this again - at this point, I do not intend to fly again if I can help it.

Interestinly, I already have FBI clearance for my job, they could easily profile me in that manner and eliminate putting me throught the public embarassment. I am sure that this is true for many women my age with my health issues. I am a 63-year old grandmother, this happened at Tampa, Southwest gates on a Saturday in May of 2010.

They are already laughing. Women who are practice Islamic religion are exempt from any type of pats, whether there is just cause or not. They do not get told if you do not like it, don't fly. From the last ten years, we have seen majority of terrorist are radical Islamic fanatics and a good 20% or so are females. Yet, they are exempted and protected. The terrorist and those who hate us have won. We lose more of our personal freedoms everyday, while they gain more within our borders.

I suppose it could be worse. I could dragged out in the street and shot for speaking out against government policies... Oh wait.. that is next. I am sure that bill will pass soon.. They will sneak it in the next healthcare reform bill.

I'm a 52 year old, overweight, white guy with grey hair. I have flown twice since they added this new pat down security. The first time I went through the scan and then they pulled me aside and gave me the pat down (groping, although I told the guy "thank you that was great"). On the way home the same thing happened. I asked them if they had seen something in the scan and they said it was probably the metal button on my jeans.

The next trip they did the same basic thing to my wife. The funny thing is, we both wore cloths with plastic buttons and no snaps. We made sure we had nothing metal in our cloths or on our person. They say small percentage, but there is always someone going through it while we are in line. It is an outrage, and my wife and I decided not to fly anymore unless it's very important.

In order for a society to allow personal freedons, living with "danger" is part of the equation. Under the assumption NOW being taken by a "cure-all" government mentaility, ALL should be regulated as to what one eats, how one arrives to destinations, what and when one is allowed to do anything.

Profiling, reviewing who "regular fliers" are, there are far BETTER WAYS to try to ensure security for the public, than assuming ALL ARE GUILTY and stripping a country and their citizens of their "freedoms". (look to other countries and what they do, like Israel)

The TSA searches are wrong!

To cut it down from a lot to a little is just plain stubborn. It's just not willing to admit it's a mistake. Set some type of criteria/standard so the public knows what triggers a "pat down"; then, maybe we can avoid it. OR is this just going to be if we feel like it?

mtmike, you touched on the solution.

Profiling /= racism, sorry.

Profiling = getting our cyber acts together and cross-referncing ticket purchases made in advance with criminal records databases, no-fly lists, prior flight records, nation of origin, etc. Flag people that present probable cause, and subject THEM to the "enhanced" searches - not everyone with a pulse that tries to fly. Anyone buying a ticket at the last minute at the gate, for cash or one way - automatic enhanced search.

Had this been done, neither the shoe bomber nor the underwear bomber would have gotten on the planes. The shoe bomber had a criminal record, multiple aliases and was a member of a jihadist, anti-American mosque (should have been on the no-fly list). The underwear bomber's own father was trying to warn authorities that his son was becoming radicalized. He had been flagged, but authorities ignored it.

http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/declassified/2009/12/26/why-bombing-suspect-may-have-been-absent-from-u-s-no-fly-list.html

And NONE of this has ANYTHING to do with race.

But we're too stupid and politically correct for that. Nevermind that there is a solid profile for terrorists - which does not include every single American with a plane ticket.

"Those who would sacrifice liberty for a brief moment of security will have, and deserve, neither."

I just watched the video on Youtube of the TSA doing a pat down of a young boy that looked maybe 3-5 years old. I heard Pistole come out a week ago and said they don't do pat downs on children under the age of twelve. So what was this. I think I would be suing them. Their not supposed to be doing it and they did it anyway.

I don't think Pistole has a real idea of whats going on out here. The video proves that they are not telling us the truth. I don't believe anything that guy says.

I did a simple search on Youtube for TSA and young boy pat down. It happened in Salt Lake City and it was taken by a college student on his cell phone while waiting in line.

I used to live in International Falls, Minnesota. At the border crossing in the summer when it was busiest, there was always a car/camper pulled over with all the contents strewed about and being searched - both entering the US and entering Canada. Some of it was for show as in "We WILL search your ENTIRE vehicle and you will have to repack it!" I'm sure it helped as a deterrent. However, it was not done to everyone. If you lived in The Falls and were recognized as a frequent crosser, the guards on both sides often would just wave you through. I imagine that is no longer possible with the need for passports or passport cards.

The guards were well trained in reading people and caught a lot of criminals trying to escape to Canada as well as confiscated a lot of contraband being smuggled into or out of Canada. They did quite well without the need to body scan and pat down everyone.

When was the last time a US citizen hijacked an airliner from a US airport? When was the last time an airplane was brought down by explosives carried by a passenger?

The 9/11 hijackers used box cutters, that could and should have been caught by the old-fashioned magnetometers that were in place. Pan Am 103 was brought down by explosives placed in the cargo hold by baggage handlers. The shoe bomber and underwear bomber failed, and it was not at all clear their "bombs" would have ever succeeded in bringing down an aircraft. They also arrived from foreign ports.

So what are we being "protected" from? Other US citizens on domestic flights? Or are we being protected from Michael Chertoff being less wealthy by selling fewer RapidScan systems?

In a related story, we continue to poison US kids with cartoon glasses containing excessive amounts of heavy metals (Pb, Cd) made in China. I vote we assign the TSA to identify and eliminate the greater risk of poisonous products made in China!

Pistole noted that those getting body searches constitute "a very small percent" of the 34 million people who have flown since the new policy went into effect.

Yeah, it seems that only cancer patients are getting screened, while the muslims get a free pass.

BB!

You offer an interesting idea. I have had to have an FBI background check also. I had to get it to have the hazardous material endorsement on my CDL. That endorsement is Clearly marked on my drivers licence. If the government could set up a system like that for frequent fliers. Mark it on their ID. Create a get out of line free card that most Americans could get for domestic flights.

My FBI check cost about 90 bucks and took maybe two weeks. I see that as a viable option. I would stuff MY FBI clearance in a TSA gropers face and Yell "See I ain't a Terrorist."

Offer up some opinions people. Who you agree to an FBI background check to avoid the indignity of being molested at the airport?

The TSA has ETD units, USE THEM.........ETD= EXPLOSIVE TRACE DETECTION. It works and it is easy. The TSA is blowing smoke up our A$$

Mike in Delray - Good post. What's the point of random screenings? There is none. It does NOT insure safety. It never has, and it never will.

Obviously, they cannot screen everyone through X-ray or pat-downs, so it's a waste of time & money, not to mention a violation of our rights.

Call out the dogs, and profile for screening. And for those of you who object to profiling, just consider that it's done everyday on the streets of America with one of the biggest targets being caucasian male teens. Police pull them over for a non-working tail-light or dent in the car and insist on seeing ID for everyone in the car, as well as doing body searches on everyone in the car. And why do they get away with it? Because this group being targeted does not, by and large, take them to task over "unreasonable searches," as do many minority groups.

Matt Lauer's defense of the TSA's new "screenings" in his interview with the head of TSA is disgusting, particularly given that both men mention the small percentage of people screened, but fail to acknowledge the futility of random screenings.

Wow. Isn't it great that they are protecting us from ourselves? The "fear factor" is certainly a powerful tool for more gov't control...

A small percentage go through the patdowns? Probably, mostly those who bear no resemblance to a terrorist such as hip replacement patients, and little old ladies. I cannot determine who IS a terrorist, but, by profiling, I can certainly tell who is 99% sure of NOT being a terrorist. Start profiling now, we will have to do it in the near future anyway..

Angry 1000 - you sound just like my husband and me. We both got stopped, extra attention paid to us, and we are the farthest from looking like terrorists you could imagine. Coming AND going on a trip to Paris!! I think they use searches on those like us to fulfill a quota.

How does Israel do it? PROFILING!! And to let those in Muslim garb off free and clear? Ridiculous.

This whole thing is a joke. Americans are like frightened sheep, ready to give up their rights to get some "pretend" security.

At least hire TSA employees with some intelligence, compassion and the ability to do some critical thinking. And doing an intimate exam in a glass box? They call that privacy?

But - they just bought all those new machines with all that stimulus money. No sense to put that to waste, now is there.

TSA needs to be put on the right track. And fast.

Damn straight the TSA needs to "review".

Here's the 4th amendment to the Constitution of the United States:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and Warrants shall not be issued, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

I would be ok with the body scanners when and only when the following circumstances are met:

1. They must be 100% radiation free. Until the technology comes about that allows the same result without using any more radiation than we get from say the sun, you can't subject the public to this.

2. Computer software should be determining the "aberrations" and flagging people as needing to be reviewed by a human. That subsequent review should be automatically be cropped to the area determined by the software algorithm to be an aberration. The aberrations create “Reasonable Suspicion / Probable Cause” and allow “search”. Until reasonable suspicion is met it is completely unconstitutional to infringe on my right to privacy.

Until this happens, I don’t care how much public safety is threatened; You can’t go down the road of “Guilty until proven innocent”, without providing the grease for the slippery slope that takes us to thought police, martial law, book burning, and other forms of enslavement and control by a big brother government. All these things are tools that can and will be abused in the future, and the only way to prevent their abuse to remember the principals on which this country was founded, arguably the chief one being Liberty:

lib·er·ty

noun \ˈli-bər-tē\

1 : the quality or state of being free: a : the power to do as one pleases b : freedom from physical restraint c : freedom from arbitrary or despotic control d : the positive enjoyment of various social, political, or economic rights and privileges e : the power of choice

Our country's founders cherished liberty, not democracy. ~Ron Paul

We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. ~Thomas Jefferson

Fourscore and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. ~Abraham Lincoln

Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty. ~John F. Kennedy

Liberty cannot be preserved without general knowledge among the people. ~John Adams

Liberty has never come from Government. Liberty has always come from the subjects of it. The history of liberty is a history of limitations of governmental power, not the increase of it. ~Woodrow Wilson

Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word, equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude. ~Alexis de Tocqueville

Give me liberty or give me death. ~Patrick Henry

Please write Congress to let them know how you feel!

To write your Member of the U.S. House of Representatives, please visit: https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml
To write your U.S. Senator, please visit:
http://senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

One other note on the scanners:

The former Secretary of Homeland Security, Michael Chertoff, represents Rapiscan, the company which is selling these scanners to his former department.

Which do you think they are "safe" or "a gravy train deal" for the former Secretary of Homeland Security who has a stake in thier sales???

@ jcbwell

I vote we assign the TSA to identify and eliminate the greater risk of poisonous products made in China!

With the current level of intelligence found within and at the head of the TSA, they would start their risk-reduction procedures by sexually molesting the children who drank out of the glasses.

HEALTH ISSUES TO ADDRESS HOMELAND SECURITY & HEALTH DEPT>

Have you noticed the BLUE GLOVES that the TSA uses for the Pat Downs??? And have you noticed that THEY DO NOT CHANGE THE GLOVES after frisking the previous passenger, who just might have some germs bad for you???? All other professionals change gloves along with the proper sanitary disposal after finishing working with each individual. So why should TSA be required to apply any less than acceptable standard health practices??? The gloves are for protecting themselves and they could care less about their passengers' health. Start demanding better health standards of practice requirements from the TSA when conducting their frisking, especially with young children and the elderly whose immune systems may not be as strong. Also, notify the Health Dept. concerning the TSA not changing gloves along with the lack of proper disposal of unsanitary gloves after frisking each individual.

I like the idea of somebody taking a baby pig on all flights.

Would soil up the crazies if they died o that plane

The body scanner is worthless piece of crap, and will not stop a Terrorist, so all you sheeple living under a false since of security wake up!

There are way’s to defeat the scanner. Do a search “Flying Pasties”

There are other products out there like underwear, where TSA will see a Fig Leaf or a Happy face, So now a terrorist will opt for the scanner and hide the weapons or what ever behind the Pasties, and totally avoid the pat-down, So the scanner will only help the terrorist in the long run,

The Porno Scanners is a mega million dollars scam on the American people, and we our footing the bill, the best way to detect weapons and Bombs, is by man’s best friend is a trained Dog

TSA admitted that the scanner, would have not detected the Underwear bomber. So don’t give up on your freedoms, for a mega million dollar scam, stand up for your rights!!

9/11 analysis of WTC dust, Mark Basille, chemical engineer ehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMkSP0_kUgMngineer. Make no mistake people, more False Flags are coming!!

9/11 analysis of WTC North Tower collapse, David Chandler, Physics instructor.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSApOavkHg8

HEALTH ALERT: HEALTH ISSUES TO ASK HOMELAND SECURITY, HEALTH DEPT., & TSA:

Have you noticed the BLUE GLOVES that the TSA uses for the Pat Downs??? And have you noticed that THEY DO NOT CHANGE THE GLOVES after frisking the previous passenger, who just might have some germs bad for you???? IT IS VERY EASY TO SPREAD INFECTIONS SUCH AS CHLAMYDIA AND TRICHOMONIASIS , etc.

What bothers me about this is that number one, as a former officer who has done this pat down more times than I can count, you ALWAYS use the back of your hand up the inside of the leg and crotch area... why? that way if you get cut by something, you are still able to use your hand as necessary... and because that way no one accuses you of copping a feel... believe me sometimes the back of your hand can detect anomalies better than your palm.

Number two, have you seen how much these TSA screeners get paid? Damn near minimum wage.. These are the people that are in charge of making sure nothing sneeks aboard? No wonder they don't give a @!$%#... and if you watch most of them? They don't. It is a JOB, just a paycheck and a small one at that..

Number three, when you have a person who has some type of medical condition, be it prosthesis or colostomy bag, those should be handled on a case by case, individual basis... you cannot pat down a colostomy patient the same as you do anyone else.. you could cause them health issues. Same thing with a prosthesis.. they don't just pop on and off... and yes, be sure to ask them to change their gloves before they handle you... I don't want someone else's yuck...

A little common sense and common courtesy would go a long way in this situation...

i read that muslim people do not have to do this (pat down or scan) because of religious reasons. is this true?

did i miss something? last i heard muslims are the ones bombing planes....

ALL muslims should be strip searched, no exceptions. if they do not like it, GOOD! you can always go back to where ever you came from.

although, i see that a 3 year old white american child CAN be searched, even though she screams while being sexually assaulted by the TSA.

3 year old girls are not exactly what i would call dangerous, muslims on the other hand, have PROVEN that they are dangerous and would love to kill that 3 year old american girl who should not have been searched.

I encourage everyone to use their cellphone cameras.

Careful.. if that is made obvious, it won't be long before they ban those being in the pat down area....

That is YOUR fear not mine-- I am not afraid of that happening to me. I know it may, just like I know it may happen that I will walk outside and be struck by an asteroid and killed instantly or more likely, someone will be texting and driving and kill me-- I have even seen texting and smoking while driving. I have never said no one should drive that owns a cell phone or a pack of cigarettes......I won't say a thing about TSA security because none of this is about making us safe, what it is a bout it using the public fear of terrorism [fueled largely by the media] to strip away our 4th amendment rights against unreasonable search and seizure. This is EXACTLY what the extremists want-- to destroy our liberty and freedom.
It is only a matter of time until full body cavity searches come up and then strip searches.

The country with the best airport security, Israel, does not use these types of scanners or genital patdowns.

We need to start actively profiling the types of individuals that are risks. Not just based on nationality and religion but based on where they have traveled in the past, the type of passport, how they paid for their tickets, etc.etc. Grandma and the grandkids are receiving all the attention while potential terrorists are not receiving enough screening.

This is not about political correctness. As the TSA has been saying for two weeks: If you don't want this scrutiny, don't fly.

Fire Pistole, dump the ENTIRE TSA and use highly trained agents to track and KILL terrorists. Using marginally trained workers, selected strictly to fill racial quotas to run an assembly line of terror against innocent Americans is a crime . Allowing it to continue one more day is a crime. Congress needs to act today. I personally hope that air traffic is so badly snarled tomorrow by protests that there will be no alternative other than to get rid of this agency altogether, and use the FBI and or other trained agencies to properly conduct security. Anybody who thins this is ok really deserves what is coming. Totalitarianism.

The TSA is taking comments and suggestions on their website. Go there and offer up ideas. I have emailed with Profiling as we can not nor should not be PC on terror. Trained dogs and no, I don't care if certain groups of people are offended or don't like them. Enhanced Passport Background Checks and requirement of a passport for airline travel.

I agree with above poster that said a return to back of hand for pat downs. More consideration needs to be found for those with medical conditions. It's one thing to be a little embarrassed by pat downs, it's a whole other story to be humiliated by people with no medical understanding of ones condition.

It's another thing to be a child touched by a stranger. What effect will that have?

After all of this uproar over the excessive TSA searches, I fully expect a big announcement any day through the news media that they have found a "terrorist" trying to pass through security with a bomb hidden under their clothes. Of course, it won't be a Muslim, so that will be their justification to continue the abuse of innocent American travelers.

Don't expect to hear anything about a trial, since it will just be another act in their security theater.

ajf-393943-no one has suggested that all security mesaures be tossed aside! Concerns about radiation levels in the scanner, and intrusive pat-downs are the issue.

This was TSA's way of 'perfecting' on the security measures, and once the photos of scanned Americans were publicized, and two travelers who are cancer survivors were profiled; this became the 'beginning of the end.'

The first encounter resulted in the woman who was asked to remove her prosthetic breast, and the second encounter involved the gentleman who failed the scanner test because his urostomy bag showed up as an 'unknown', and then a failed pat-down resulted in the TSA agent breaking the seal on the bag, leaving the man to be covered with his own urine!

What part of this picture do you not understand? Pistole's rationalization fails miserably. Apparently, when Americans are asking for TSA to let up, you take the opposite position stating that "we can all say we told you so."

You (sir) are a 'lemming' in human form and would dive over a cliff if you were ordered to do so. We would like to be left with a semblence of our dignity intact---that is all we are asking.

Finally, if it means that travelers participate in 'OPT OUT' day, then by all means this is another way to win the war on this demeaning security measure! Have this economic boycott last for two weeks, and by God, there will be changes!

here a link on the underwear that stop the scanner, so all you need to do is place a weapon behind it. So the porno scanner is a scam

http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/special-undies-to-combat-tsa-policy/6e73bwg?from=

Pistole; Backtracking on TSA. In an interview, he spins the outrage of American citizens, and why this needs to be done. He looks clueless, and very ill-informed.

From my observation of this interview, NOTHING will change. They are worried about Travel for Thanksgiving Day---People who are going to go thru with OPT. They may let another person in the room while doing the Pat down. Who is that going to be; a wife's husband, or a Cancer patient's doctor. Idiotic. It is still molestation and unwanted assault.

The Government doesn't want to take the blame for one ill-thought out plot to save us from Terrorists.

Talk to EL AL who are not hysterical about their methods,; are not intrusive like this. Profiling, Profiling; picking out the people who seem to be suspicious.

the TSAholes are taking comments on their terror site to put it out there as a window dressing. they don't care about anyones comments. there are other ways of implementing security without making anyone feel molested and a a common criminal. i'm livid with this terror organization but i'm even more livid at the amount of cowards in this country who put up with this massive crime.all for the sake of the pseudo reason of safety. these people just don't get it.what the hell has happened to people?did i just wake up in the land of cowards?what generations have we spawned in this country to let opression get this far?

these people doing these crimes are no more than corrupt criminals.they are not concerned about anyones safety, as i said before there are plenty of other ways, to secure anything including airports.

these airheads don't understand,that while they're groping, molesting, and pornscanning them, there is a vast amount of unsecured things and places that are being ignored, and are open season for the socalled terrorists.one of them is the luggage and cargo compartment on these planes.either people are just ignorant, or they have no idea what their dealing with.another place is the borders, don't these people realize that it's an illegal fest?they come and go like they were at a shopping mall.the government claims notice i said claims that it's done more to secure the border, bit it's window dressing propaganda and a pack of lies.

Bob Steel your right they need to fire this overblown Nazi Piss Head Pistol, and J. Napolpuntonatano.they need to disband this TSA altogether.this name Home Land Security, has the ripping effects of 1933,Nazi Germany,they called it the Fatherland,and anyother title with the word land in it iis a hint for things to come. these labels spell trouble, they spell tyranny, they spell opression.

the people flying and putting up with this garbage better smarten the hell up.these are ,massive crimes against humanity,and human rights being committed and these lemmings have no idea that the crimes are gaginst them.WAKE THE HELL UP.

Robin Steele:

Very insightful. Children are taught these days by their parents not to let a stranger, or anyone touch them, or touch them in their private parts.

It is horrendously irresponsible for the mental health of the child. Think past that. Will the child be able to discern another person who may try to touch them, because now they have been "fondled" by a TSA agent.

This is truly a disgusting measure to take, for safety on an Airliner. It will leave mental marks on many people, especially the ones who have prothesis for cancer, or other diseases. How about the elderly?

How uncomfortable is this for pre teens who are going through Puberty?

TSA employs 67,000 people...

According to government issued databases, there are about 14000 airports in the U.S. Of those only about 5000 have paved runways. And out of that 5000, there are only 376 that have regularly scheduled airline service.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_airports_are_there_in_the_US#ixzz162MvpnsI

Hummm, 67,000 workers for what? 400-500 airports? At 500 airports, that's 134 TSA personnel per airport...just as I have said before...just another bloated government agency whose main objective is empire building...

Oh, and let's not forget that out of the 67,000 positions, 3,500 are admin. that pay over $100K per year!

afj - You're part of the "what if" or "when another one crashes" paranoia problem! I say let us have our weapons back and let the terroist idiots know we're all potentially armed and equally dangerous. They're all cowards and they'll find another way to wage their idiotic religious war against the rest of humanity. The TSA security is nothing more than an illusion of being safer in the air; were no more safer in the air than we are drug free in America with the government so called war on drugs; the TSA and the DEA are nothing more than money pit cash cows that feed and grow on your petty paranoia. Grow a pair America.

Good point Robin & Hawaii2 good touch or bad touch

I can see it now, A parent will stop a TSA worker from fondling there child, And they will give child protective services a call, and the child will be taken away from the parent, I bet money this will happen, the child will be scared for the rest of there life

Love the post...Citizen Frank!

The TSA has tried every conceivable screening technique except for the one that makes the most sense. AND the one thing that actually works.

PROFILING!!!

Thanks to "political correctness", they're paving the way for the extremists, while holding up honest citizens.

Why not just hang a quart of pigs-blood over the entrance to every commercial airliner, with a sign that says; "Warning! Jihadist Detector!"

No planes have ever gone down at the hands of three year old children or middle aged white female cancer survivors. Political Correctness is the greatest security threat to our country, not grandpa's underwear.

And when the next plane that goes down happens because a terrorist shoved the plastic explosives up his colon, what's the TSA's response to that? Mandatory enemas?

Then the next time after that, the terrorist will have his bomb surgically implanted in his abdomen, and the TSA will have to open the stiches of everyone who's had recent surgery.

EVERY TIME the TSA has responded to the last threat. And EVERY TIME someone thinks of a new way to bypass the security. Luggage bomb, shoe bomb, underwear bomb, can't you extrapolate and see this approach just keeps getting sillier and sillier?

Actually, now the next bomb probably won't be up the guy's colon; it'll be in a prosthetic breast or limb, since the TSA has announced those don't have to be removed anymore. The one after that will be the butt-bomb.

ajf-393943

I completely agree...Americans have short term memory, with some suffering from extreme mental retardation...

Bottom line, if a person wishes to gain entrance onto a vehicle that travels 500+mph, at altitudes upwards of 35000ft, then then need to get their ass to walk thru this scanner, which by the way is monitored in another area separate from the screening area, if not, they have been given a choice of whether they want to go thru the scanner or be physically searched...If this inconveniences them in any way, then take the train...or banana boat depending on their destination..

Jim:

Sorry, but don't expect any changes from the TSA or our Government.

Have they ever listened to the American Public outcries in the last 2 years.

This one is "Set in Stone"; (just like Health Care) because our President only listens to himself; not you.

He is adamant about keeping the new Procedures, of which cost over 300,000 million dollars, your taxpayer money. What will they do, with the Scanners if they are disgarded.

On a shopping spree again. BTW: How much radiation does the scanner give off; we haven't gottent the answer to this one yet.

Instead of allowing "another plane to go down" , we are allowing our whole country to go down.

I don't want security, I want my rights and freedoms and privacies back !

I am not willing to give up my constitutional rights to unwarranted searches. I will not fly with this rule in place. This is just another step in the slow process of stripping us of our civil liberties. Which one is next?

Pretty sure they're all already laughing at us. In addition, TSA only screens flights originating in the US. Why wouldn't you just go to another country with a more lax screening policy?

Everyone is missing the point. Body scanners = Police State. What about the radiation act of 79? They are radiating the public.........period. I don't care what your take is or what twisted set of values convinces you this is ok,,,,it is not, and it is illegal. They are conditioning the public to accept intrusive government behavior. Feds released new terrosist are right wing christian americans. Really! Wake up all the Police State is here........fight for god sakes! Prisonplanet.com

Your fear and cowardice is ruining our country.

I think it's time to make flights of differing securities. Those of you who are so afraid of the bogeyman that you are willing to give up everything that makes America great can pay a little more and enjoy scans and searches and other invasions of rights and privacies while the rest of us enjoy what it means to be American.

How about it ?

Follow the money--I feel safer! not to make you paranoid, but....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VucstNtPy0Q&feature=player_embedded#!

Average cost of scanners @ $150,000 - $180,000

http://money.cnn.com/2010/01/05/technology/full_body_scanner/

The aggressive pat downs are just to get people to accept the scanners. And our freedoms & liberties get eroded just that much more. In the end we will become a totalitarian state..... not by leaps & bounds, but by erosion. Much the way an elephant can be devoured by ants.

It will be carried out under the guise of "Public Safety", and will be done "For the Children". That seems to always be the excuse when the Food/Smoking/Safety Nazis take away more of our liberties. Seems this administration is getting good at diminishing our freedoms, all the while getting us to pay extra for that privilage.

Fire Pistole!

The xray machines and full body pat downs don't make me feel any safer, and I fly international flights 8 or 9 times a year.

Mechanical failure or pilot error, is just as likely(more likely than bombs getting past the old security measures) as it was before. Now that the pilot cabins are locked, no one will be forcing the pilot to bring the plane down.

If you are arguing FOR the pat downs and xrays, even though they aren't the best methods and won't find all threats, than YOU need to stop flying.

Why should my family and myself have to be subjected to possible long term cumalative effects of radiation and/or have our genitals groped? My son won't be receiving any extra radiation, unless it's medically necessary. If they fondle his genitals, they WILL be facing a lawsuit.

Let's bring dogs into every security station and sniff everyone as they walk through.

Name one instance where a terrorist has blown up a plane after leaving from a US airport. All the prior incidents of bombs getting aboard, were from foreign airports with less security than we had before the xrays/pat downs.

And to those who are assigning guilt/blame to all Muslims and "Arabs", there are criminals among our population who are killing our own citizens on a daily basis. Should we blame every American for not keeping OUR own citizens in check and/or not doing more in stopping them?

I plan to boycott the airlines. I urge you all to do the same.

They are already laughing at us. Look how much money we as taxpayers have paid to amp up security in all the airports. The terrorists will probably bankrupt us before another airplain goes down.

Hawaii:

when did our government/WH listen to the will of the people BEFORE 2 years ago(Obama took office)?

It's mighty convenient of you to place the blame for all our problems at Obama's feet.

Maybe that's why most rational people will dismiss your posts as rubbish.

I've got it - we already have to take off our shoes, so how about if we also take off our underwear and put that in one of the little trays, will that satisfy the TSA?

Most rational people didn't vote for the boob in the first place.

Considering the terrorists' failure rate, I'd rather take my chances with the terrorists than continue to desensitize everybody to living in a police state. Worst case, I'd die free and with my dignity.

Isn't it strange how Israel is praised for their Security Measures El Al, and other Commercial Airline flying that have been mastered by them.. .

Most of the time Israel, and the Israeli's are denigrated by many people and countries.

Which is it folks? Most of the time, Israel should be wiped off the map, according to remarks posted in other articles.

Is it just their high safety Security Measures that are everyone admires or is it the "smarts" of Israel and their people. Total logic.

What a parallel re: singing the praises of this Country today.

Hawaii 2: No, not illogical or strange at all. Most things in life are not black and white so one takes the GOOD from it and learn from it while not imitating what they consider negatives..

Their security measures WORK because they use common sense and profile.

yeah that sounds good, so in other countries are they checking their junk to get through airport security? no i didnt think so. They just walk around with bad ass guns and profile. THATS what America should be doing.

According to TSA, "Now only a small amount of people are being put thru Body Scanners"...the rest are being put thru the normal Metal Detectors at all the Airports, which HAVE proven to be very secure these past 11 years. So, when a person is greeted by a TSA worker & pointed into the direction of the Metal Detector but has something on them that COULD be detected by the Body Scanner & NOT the Metal Detector... he or she goes "happily" & "relieved" towards their gate, wiping the sweat off of their brow! Now...you tell me...was that GOOD security? I saw it happen a few days ago. I had to choose the Body Scanner in lieu of the Pat-Down. In the meantime, another man/woman who has NO threatening objects on them, gets COMPLETELY screened, their body VIEWED by some pervert, feels humiliated, walks away with a sickening feeling, and goes to the same GATE as the other person...is he/she supposed to FEEL so secure? Probably a few more of those people sitting waiting at that GATE also didn't get properly screened! If any Man or Woman had to go thru this, then EVERY OTHER ABLED BODY should be SUBJECTED to the same screening!! Face it, most Americans don't like this intrusive sexual abuse, it's totally against our 4th Amendment Rights, they are being singled out and taken advantage of in the Scanner, or having to have an out-right "sex assult" pat-down! Maybe they should be able to choose the Metal Detector instead...but they aren't give that choice. I'm starting to believe, that If you happen LIKE strangers touching your body or starring at you through a scanner, then I feel very sorry for you for wanting this false sense of security. And, anyone who would WANT to intrusively touch another person's private parts (& some have been more agressive than others) cannot possibly believe that this is an OKAY ACT! If they do, I feel sorry for them too. No one can say that "this is just a job"!! Some of these un-educated, not properly trained, TSA workers are enjoying this...they laugh about it...and some are not... and are serious but find it questionalble themselves...but UNTIL this abuse stops, there is nothing travellers & families can do about it, and that is VERY, VERY SAD! If you want the protection, then go ahead & volunteer to go through the Scanner or have the Pat-Down!! Some travellers think this is very humorus, and that's a very sick mind. This security is NOT always going to help you, since it CAN'T detect a lot of illegal materials anyway, & wandering hands can't feel things in someone's body... So, the question is..."Why have them in the first place if they will only do 50% of the job?" Security & Airline Personnel really need to start looking at the BAGGAGE screeners in the Terminals who steal from other people's bags when no one is looking, and Mechanics who are also supposed to make PLANES safe...and every month there is something wrong with a plane because of the negligence of an Airline worker who didin't do their job properly, and every day someone gets something stolen from their baggage that they "so securely" checked at the counter!! Face it, s*** happens, and these new CONTROLING procedures to "check us out" aren't going to make us any MORE secure or SAVE our lives. NO ONE will ever be secure in any Public Place or on any Public Transportation System. LIFE is a chance & we live Life everyday to our best. We need to have a little MORE true compassion for those who unfortunately ARE being VIOLATED, instead of thinking that we are above God, and have no respect for the Elderly, the Disabled & People with illnesses who NEED to travel but don't NEED to be EXPOSED in Public, Previously Sexually Abused People who have FEAR, and Regular Men & Women who do the RIGHT things, wouldn't hurt anyone and fear being violated! (I fall into one of those categories, unfortunately) These TSA Workers aren't Doctors, or Nurses, or have a Qualified Education to insure SAFETY in these mentioned "vulnerable" people! The Government is NOT going to lessen the pain for these people, like they said that they would! Some of these people HAVE to fly to some place, for some reason...and now there is so much fear in them...and it's not because a possible terrorist hiding something that CANNOT be found! Yes, we have Terrorists in this Nation, and other Terrrorists from other Countries who would like to see America fall on it's knees, but I personally don't want to be "Guilty until proven Innocent" in something that I NEVER had any intentions of doing! I want to keep my humility, my dignity and self-respect, my civil rights, and so does everyone ELSE in this Country. The Goverment can find OTHER ways to keep our Country safe...that's what they SHOULD be doing...NOT praising themselves for showing that they can have illegal POWER over the American people, call all the shots from their little world & actually be the ones making the people they govern fall to their knees with embarassment. TOUCHING SOMEONE INAPPROPRIATELY IS ILLEGAL 7 MORALLY WRONG!! People... It's all in "Critical Thinking". The Heads of these Departments don't seem to have the intelligence for this. Anyway, No, nothing will change and nothing will be done about all of this in the near future...so... do as J-Nap said..."If you don't like it, don't fly". Oh, that's real intelligent!! The Airline Industry should put a rope around her neck for saying something like that! The Airline Industry is one of the biggest businesses in our Country! The Amercian people take advantage of them to get them from one place to another!! Airline Employees & Administration should be speaking out about all this insanity! We will ALL feel it when THEY slowly go out of business because people & frequent business flyers decide NOT to fly, and then people loose their jobs and join the other unemployed people! That's REAL intelligent! If other countries want to be insane, let them be...America doesn't have to follow other stupid people, we can use our God-given brains. We can also use the new "policy" that was created a while ago..."See Something?...Say Something"! Why do you think words like "vigilance" & "dilligence" are in our dictionaries? Use your EYES & EARS as "SECURITY", and you'll be MORE safe than giving someone PERMISSION to use sexual abuse on INNOCENT people. By the way, "pervert" is also in the dictionary! And these ARE perverted, corrupt Acts that are being carried out in the name of SECURITY! If schools can have "zero-tolerance" to this type of behavior in our schools, then we can have "zero-tolerance" in our general public places too...Airports, Bus Stations, Train Stations, Malls, Restaurants, Places of Worship...Everywhere that a terrorist can HURT us. Maybe we need to put screening devices everywhere that people go!! So, to end this comment... If you believe that what has just been written is not the case at all, then please feel free to try to contradict me & my beliefs. I'm writing this because I believe in doing the "right thing", I have a lot of compassion for purely innocent people, and so do most people in this Country. If ONLY our Goverment did. THEY have the power to have it too. The Security Policies that were in place before, were doing EVERYTHING that they were supposed to do at Airports. It was the SECURITY SCREENERS that MAY NOT have done THEIR job, and THEY let a would-be terrorist continue down to try to get on a plane...it wasn't a MACHINE that made the error! It was HUMAN ERROR!! The Metal Detectors found lots of illegal devices in people's pockets...the screeners didn't find them!! Even our Government knows that!! They aren't stupid with this!! We can't stop every-day "human error", but we can use other Resources to combat Terrorism...other countries have proven that they can too. The terrorists are winning the game in our Country! They will get the "last laugh", because we are too complacent to speak out and demand "change" and ask for the intelligent "correct" thing to do. Washington needs to use their heads if they want to come out "winners". Let's see if they REALLY get it!! I sincerely doubt that they will, before it's TOO LATE. I'm older, but I feel really sorry for the young people in our country. They are the ones who will suffer the most. They just don't SEE it yet. And YES, something will happen...it's a matter of time...when we least expect it!! I hope it won't be too late to do something to stop this insanity, & start really protecting this Country like we are supposed to...with our Brains!! Not our hands & dirty minds! Heck...Use Dogs at Security Places if we have to! They like to sniff bodies!! Use Good Intelligent Forces!! Use Good Leadership! Political Correctness is what has gotten us into this MESS in the first place...so do away with all the PC Stuff & get down to the Reality! We need to come together as a Nation...Old & Young, and make a difference! We will thank ourselves in the end!

I am traveling this Wednesday for 4 days and cannot wait to go through the airport. In my carry-on bag I will have my toiletries in a 1qt plastic bag ready for inspection, I will be wearing shoes that slip on and off very easily, comfortable clothes and I will have all the proper paperwork, ie boarding pass, ID. I will be prepared for the pat-down. I am not worried that someone is going to 'feel me up'. I expect to breeze through security.

And for all you people that think that someone is deriving sexual pleasure from a 30 second grope you need to have your head examined. I am sure that the TSA people dont want to be groping people all day long and that after a while it begin to become extremely boring. Do you derive sexual pleasure from 30 seconds of touching yourself? Even if it were a hot chick, you think some guy is going to be able to get her number inside of 30 seconds? Shes probably traveling to see her boyfriend, fiance, husband who probably makes more than the TSA lackey working for $15/hr.

You're a joke. What a crock of you know what this is. Complete and utter BS...

Older 'N how do you know that person walked away feeling humiliated and sickened? Stop speaking for others. Keep your mouth shut and speak for yourself ONLY. Its NOT sexual abuse you @!$%#ing freak. Do you get pleasure from touching yourself for 30 seconds? Admit it, you touch yourself. Everybody does. That makes you a pervert too! AMAZING!

See something say something? You just offended someone, the ACLU is going to sue you!

You think it would be better to profile people that are of Middle Eastern descent? Anyone who is sweating, pacing or otherwise looks out of the ordinary? Thats profiling and thats wrong because of people like YOU who whine about every safety measure that comes about.

You are a rambling fool.

Okay, what would YOUR solution to the problem be? Just let everyone onto the plane without checking them out? Fine, YOU get on that plane. I wont.

I'm with Heather-2703894 walk around with bad ass guns and profile. THATS what America should be doing.

American Lobo:

It is the President's responsibility to listen to the Will of the People. He hasn't in the 2 years in Office. He made a speech re: this issue, that these rules will be enforced, no changes.

TSA says there will be slight changes, but hearing Pistole speak on Cable News, he is spinning his words. Nothing will change.

As President Obama has made it loud and clear in his speeches,"The Buck ops Here"; ultimately he is responsible. When there are problems in any company or corporation, it is the person at the Top who takes the Heat.

"They are already laughing. Women who are practice Islamic religion are exempt from any type of pats, whether there is just cause or not. They do not get told if you do not like it, don't fly."

If that is true....guess I'm gonna be wearing a burka next time I fly! Honestly...I'll be taking a train or driving anywhere I go if this continues. When we as a country quit putting every other ethnic/religious/nationality group's feelings before our safety...I'll fly again. I'm sorry if it offends someone who looks like the people who blew up the WTC when I seem skittish around them on a plane but that's life in America right now....suck it up.

Pure Capitalism:

If you think so---are you aware of Sexual Harrassment and Molestation; child molestation; Cancer Patients who have to undo their prothesis or personal "bags", elderly people who have to get out of their wheel chairs, to expose themselves to strangers who do not know them?.

For your knowledge this is considered Sexual Assault in the real world, outside of the Airport, and inside the Airport.

Agents are committing a real crime in real life.

Have a nice flight and feel-down, or take all the radiation you can get. Very smart to give your body/future health away.

you know, instead of groping grandma, the TSA would be better utilized securing our borders!

AJF, quickly, how many terrorist attempts on airlines have been attempted and thwarted in the U.S. due to our security checks? Don't bother looking, I'll tell you. ZERO. None. Not one, ever, ever, ever. We agree on one thing, the terrorist are laughing, their laughing at our predictable, expensive and knee-jerk reactions which do little or nothing to suppress their ultimate goal. Prove me wrong.

Where are the "moderate" muslims...strangely silent, AGAIN!!

Funny, I can hear the muslims CELEBRATING!!!!...lalalalalalalalalala!

I am embarrassed by the ignorance of AMericans about security when flying. IF A PAT DOWN OR A SCAN KEEPS US SAFE, WHAT IN THE HELL IS EVERYONE COMPLAINING ABOUT? I'd say that the majority of people bitching about this have never flown anywhere and are simply raving just to please Obama Haters and "how we have no civil rights anymore". My "God", why don't you people just stay home or shut up.

OMG Are you kidding me!!! If they(Terrorist) take down another plane, they do, Letting the goverment molest children and adult, is not the answer!! If someone other then TSA MOLEST Children and adults we send them to jail. But Oh its ok to molest children and adults, becuz were the OBAMA Bithes and do what his people think is best! Get a clue people, they touch my girls i'll go to jail for whoopin their Butts. Thats a Promise. I fly all the time and have had to have a pat down, i felt molested by that pervert! But can i press charges NO becuz the govt says its ok to molest children and adults that fly, next it will be trains and buses. Then in our own cars under Obama's rein!! LET THEM DO THAT TO HIS GIRLS AND SEE IF THEY DONT GET ARRESTED!!

AJF is the prime example of everything that is wrong with our society. After the failures of 9/11 that allowed terrorists to take over airplanes and then use them as a weapon we put security doors on cockpits and scramble fighters to shoot down any plane that deviates. No bombs.

A guy boards a plane in England with explosives in his shoe, which was not big enough to guarantee bringing down the plane, so because some other country has bad security we are forced to take our shoes off and cannot bring liquids onboard. Bombs, but no from our end.

Now a young man from Nigeria who should have been caught by screeners because of his age and nationality as a possible terrorist candidate is allowed to walk through and board a plane with a small amount of explosive in his underwear. TSA failed to catch this guy when it had the tools to stop it.

So now we have to go through invasive procedures because of rumors (i.e. breast implant bombs) and the fact that almost a year ago TSA failed to catch a terrorist that matched the profile fully.

What the morons at the TSA ( who are a joke when it comes to security) and the sheep like AJF do not realize that on a busy holiday when those lines to enter the TSA security checkpoints are back with hundred of people at the big airports, a terrorist with a suicide vest on can easily walk up to the lines and detonate killling and wounding as many people as if they brought down a plane. The TSA has created a large, viable soft target for terrorists that with their long time to get through security checkpoints.

Just put on your tinfoil underwear and quit your crying you big crybabies. Or go Greyhound.

The NAZIS finally won WW2 and half of Americans are sheep that let it happen. That half doesn't deserve freedom and are gladly giving it away a piece at a time.

You had better believe the terrorists are laughing up their dishdasha sleeves at us. They caused exactly what they intended to -- practically bringing travel to a halt over OUR holidays -- and Obama fell for it. Where is the ACLU when you need it????

No one is forced to take a plane...there are several modes of transportation available to get them to their destination...If you are unable to accept the security policies to get on an aircraft, then select another form of transportation...This whole argument on their right to refuse body search is pitiful...Save the constitutional arguments for important issues and not one that only appears to be an inconvenience...Personally, if I worked for the TSA, I would not look forward to being next to and searching any individual who's been walking and standing all day...the odor would nauseate anyone..

Oh and a busniess traveller taking a WEEK to drive , bus or plane from LA to NY rather than a 4-5 hour flight IS a good argument??

Save the constitutional arguments for important issues

When is ANY erosion of the constitution NOT important??

Here's the 4th amendment to the Constitution of the United States:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and Warrants shall not be issued, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

That's pretty clear.

Sybrsean....As a IT professional, if I'm required to go to an offsite location to support a client or report status, I'll do what is required to get there....My employer would not take kindly to me touting my consitutional rights as justfication for not getting to my destination on time...Throwing that type of excuse as reason for not meeting my committment would easily get me fired in any organzation....Time is money and your argument holds little water in the business world....

Then you're not left with the choice you proposed. Which was "If you don't like the policy don't fly."

Business Travelers don't have that choice. Using your own logic they must submit themselves to unconstitutional searches and inappropriate groping that would get anyone else arrested.

Sybrsean....You do have a choice, you either walk thru the electronic scanner or get manually searched...Your choice...If you choose neither, you don't get on the plane....Pretty straightforward, requiring little effort, unless you have a lot of time on your hands to complain about something...

Yea, who has time to complain over a little thing like the Constitution being broken.

As I pointed out above you said:

No one is forced to take a plane

and then

As a IT professional, if I'm required to go to an offsite location to support a client or report status, I'll do what is required to get there

becuase as you said:

not meeting my committment would easily get me fired in any organzation

To which I pointed out:

Business Travelers (like you) don't have the choice (of not flying). By your own logic (It takes to long and isn't business practical) they must submit themselves to unconstitutional searches and inappropriate groping that would get anyone else arrested.

Just found this gem...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3yaqq9Jjb4&feature=player_embedded

Hahahahahahaha..........you all still think this is about men in turbans and your safety while in flight. Educate yourselves on the radiation act of 79, watch Police State 4 on youtube for free, watch the Shock Doctrine and see how our Chicago Boys "Cheney, Rumbsfield, Kissinger, Bush's have been doing this to Venezuela, Chile, El Salvador, Argentina, half of Africa. Collapse housing - Done. Collapse job market - Done. Collapse the currency - Almost Done. Trade weapons for food - their goal. They have and will continue to do this until they get their global empire. So while you all sit and argue if the TSA is allowed to touch you and your childrens genitals, the actual liberty is stripped. Next thing you know they will be at the schools and in the malls.

Good news:

http://www.aclu.org/technology-and-liberty/airport-security

The ACLU is a selective, left leaning organization when it comes to things it pursues. As a left leaning org, they embrace the idea of big governement and government control. They are just as hypocrtical as NOW - they cherry pick their causes, making sure they are consistent with their politics

Agree with Independent Thinker to some extent, but they're getting my money to fight airport scans.

Libertarianism is neither a left-leaning nor a right-leaning ideal. It is an AMERICAN ideal that tends to be socially liberal and fiscally conservative.

If Bush was in right now it would be a total outcry of how we are living in a police state, but under Obama the administration isn't called out for it, just the agency. I couldn't stand Bush, but for all you Obama supporters who want to question the tea party people about "Where were you when George Bush was doing this," my question to you is "Where did you all go?"

I still oppose unconstitutional domestic spying (which Obama renewed and strengthened), I still oppose engagement in undeclared wars (that Hillary voted to get into and Obama keeps us in), and I thought airport security was an over-the-top joke for nearly a decade, but this is way over the line.

Where is the ACLU on this??? I don't always agree with them, but sometimes I do and would be curious about their input.

What would you expect the ACLU to do or not do? This isn't a violation of the 4th Amendment, since flying is a choice, and choices involve trade-offs. If Congress and two-thirds of the states ever pass a constitutional amendment granting US citizens the right to fly, then maybe the ACLU might oppose the searches that are the source of such controversy.

The ACLU IS getting involved. I rep was recently part of an interview with a politician from New Jersey (my apologies, I can't think of his name right now, or what position he is in, congress, senate governor)

The ACLU is probably heaviliy invested in the companies involved in producing all of the body scanner machines required. (Most will opt to be scanned before being felt up, and the powers in control understand this and will profit very well from this)

tristan, you're just plain wrong.

Everything in life is a choice. By your reasoning, police wouldn't need probable cause to search your car - they just could because you made a choice to drive the car. They wouldn't need probable cause to search your home, or stop you on the street or otherwise invade your privacy.

Tens of millions of air passengers do NOT all present probable cause to be a potential terror threat, and that is the basis for forcing everyone through the same security measures - they don't know which one is a security threat, so they throw probable cause out the window and search everyone.

Just to be politically correct. Profiling travel patterns, country of origin, prior criminal activity, and many other NON-RACE related traits CAN lead to probable cause - but for some reason there are people that will accept the gross invasion of personal space and illegal search to AVOID using knowledge we have.

It's stupid.

We don't need the government to give us a right to fly - we need them to respect the right to fly we already have!

Flying is a right. The common law right to travel predates the constitution, and is incorporated in the all other rights mentioned in the 10th amendment. Not convinced? How about 49 US Code-Section 40103 (2) "A citizen of the United States has a public right of transit through the navigable airspace." That's the law.

As to security, most people recognize the tsa as little more than window dressing, ie, show without substance. We put up with their silly rules about nail clippers, tweasers, bottled water and so forth because it's not worth fighting over. After all, they might protect us from someone stupider than themselves, maybe. (Then again, maybe not. They flunk their own internal tests 50% of the time.)

On the down side, tsa workers have been caught using drugs on the job, stealing from luggage, verbal abusing some, physically assaulting others, and now sexually molesting men, women, and children. The scanners don't detect explosives and are a radiation hazard to all around them.

The tsa needs to remember that they exist to protect us from terrorist, not to be a terror to us.

Everything in life is a choice.

You're right. But not everything in life is an inherent right. You have a right to be secure in your home and to be free of unreasonable searches and seizures in your home. As for your car, the U.S. Supreme Court (have you heard of that?) has ruled that people have a lower expectation of privacy in their vehicles, so the threshold for probable cause is lower for car searches than for house searches.

Also, your car isn't public transportation -- unless you're a cabbie -- and your car is not engaged in interstate commerce -- unless you're using it for business -- so yours is an apples & oranges comparison.

Not sure how anything I said got you to the conclusion you drew. I just know your conclusion is wrong.

And yet there IS a threshold for probable cause while you're driving your vehicle. Where is the comparable threshold for 99.999% of the people traveling through airports?

In over simplified terms, probable cause “exist[s] where the known facts and circumstances are sufficient to warrant a man of reasonable prudence in the belief that contraband or evidence of a crime will be found,” Ornelas v. United States, 517 U.S. 690, 696 (1996); Illinois v. Gates, 462

U.S. 213, 238 (1983).

If you do a Lexis/Nexus search for SCOTUS (yes, I have in fact heard of it, spare me the smart arse remarks, aright?) decisions relating to the the 4th Amendment and probable cause, the burden rests with the government authority to prove they had it prior to a search and/or seizure. The burden is NOT on the victim of the search.

In all things there are thresholds, that goes without saying. The TSA has crossed the threshold on this, and one reason among many is that they cannot possibly establish probable cause for 99.99% of the people they are searching.

Which could in fact apply to the screening of luggage and shoes as well. People were willing to accept these as annoying but ultimately small, non-invasive measures. The TSA went too far. It will wind up in court, of that I have no doubt.

What you're overlooking is the fact that commercial air flight is federally regulated. Driving you car through the countryside is not.

Hence, in addition to being confused about probable cause, you're also confused about when to apply it. The fact that you have to buy a ticket before you can fly commercially is proof that it is not a right. Rather, it is part of a contract: you are paying the airline money, and the airline is providing you a flight from A to B. Because the feds can regulate such flights, the feds have the right to impose stipulations in the contract.

So, if you choose to contract with a commercial airline, you are choosing to contract with an industry that is federally regulated. If the feds decide to add searches to their list of regulations, you again have a choice: buy a plane ticket, or don't buy a plane ticket. If you buy a ticket, you have granted constructive consent to be searched.

p.s. I prefer westlaw.

Ron P., I NEVER agree with the ACLU. But I too wondered why they are not all over this as they were in Arizona when we wanted to deter illegals.

This TSA procedure has nothing to do with security and everything to do with making us feel like the criminals they think we are. It is another cinching of the belt around our Constitutional rights against unreasonable search and seizure. It is another attempt to stop our free travel here and abroad, which has always been an American freedom not known in other countries. Our roads and bridges are intentionally being left essentially untravelable, and now air travel is being made distasteful (at this point), perhaps verbotten in the very near future.

All you advocating this...

Is THIS what you want???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6ByKOhAhsU

Do you feel more secure now?!?!?

Yes, tristan,Federal regulations, that violate a straightforward provision of the Constitution. Perhaps, if the Fed can't find a way to regulate so as to not wipe their feet on Constitutional protections, they should be relieved of their regulatory duties.

It is very disturbing to me that people such as yourself are so willing to throw over the protections of the Constitution, just because the Federal Government has claimed authority. Over what will they next claim authority, do you ask yourself that question? Is it acceptable that the government be constantly seeking new ways and new areas in which to exert their authority? What is specifically enumerated to the Federal government and what have they simply claimed authority over? Do you question, at all, the massive overuse of the "general welfare" clause? What areas have they encroached upon which should be the domain of the states, that have ended up better for the encroachment? In most cases, this things wherein the Federal government inserted itself have gotten more expensive, bogged down in bureaucracy and ultimately failed in many ways.

Government encroached on health care, and broke it - decades ago, not last March. It encroached on education, and broke it. It encroached on transportation, and while there were some positive outcomes with that, in many ways broke it, too.

It's our job as the governed to question and demand accountability from the government we ALLOW to govern us, not just accept their imminent domain in all things.

Perhaps you're not seeing the ACLU is because this is not a privacy issue...

You're given a choice here...if you were not, well that's different...This is an argument over inconvenience and not privacy...give it a rest, shutup and go thru the screener so the rest of the people waiting behind you patiently can get to their gate and catch their flight...

give it a rest, shutup and go thru the screener

Nice attitude, sounds like something a Nazi would say to the people he was loading on the train.

As I said earlier:

You can’t go down the road of “Guilty until proven innocent”, without providing the grease for the slippery slope that takes us to thought police, martial law, book burning, and other forms of enslavement and control by a big brother government. All these things are tools that can and will be abused in the future, and the only way to prevent their abuse to remember the principals on which this country was founded, arguably the chief one being Liberty

And again regarding your "you have a choice comment":

Then you're not left with the choice you proposed. Which was "If you don't like the policy don't fly."

Business Travelers don't have that choice. Using your own logic they must submit themselves to unconstitutional searches and inappropriate groping that would get anyone else arrested.

Sybrsean...

I find this whole todo as being completely trivial...Considering the concerns surrounding terrorism, the TSA has obviously put together some controls to help in reducing this threat...Personally, I don't have an issue with them. If you feel violated by walking thru an electronic scanner for a few moments to be checked, I think you have much bigger problems outside the scope of airline security...

Yes, tristan,Federal regulations, that violate a straightforward provision of the Constitution. Perhaps, if the Fed can't find a way to regulate so as to not wipe their feet on Constitutional protections, they should be relieved of their regulatory duties.

You say the feds are wiping their feet on constitutional protections. The Constitution says (and the Supreme Court -- that body that you've heard of but are unfamiliar with -- agrees) that Congress has the right to regulate commerce.

Also, no one is forcing you to fly. Flying is a choice. You can't choose to give up your right to privacy, then complain that your right to privacy has been infringed.

Do I worry about government encroachment? You bet! But making illogical, unsubstantiated arguments that fly in the face of decades of case law does little to illuminate the issue or advance your position.

Business Travelers don't have that choice. Using your own logic they must submit themselves to unconstitutional searches and inappropriate groping that would get anyone else arrested.

And who exactly is forcing these business travelers to engage in business? If you can identify the culprits, you'd have a good case for kidnapping or false imprisonment.

Seriously, though, no one is legally forced to work for any one entity. Like flying, where you work is a choice. If you don't want to work for a company, quit. So, yes, business travelers have that choice.

Sure, all of us business travelers can just go back to being unemployed. Get out your checkbook, Tristan. You may need a few new pens.

It's not as simple as that, dude. You know it. Some of us don't have a choice but to take the most expeditious form of transportation if we want to see our families on the weekends. Give it a rest. I wish telecommuting was an option - and with some clients I've had, it is. You don't get to dictate terms like this to customers...unless you're in some other country.

Some of us don't have a choice but to take the most expeditious form of transportation if we want to see our families on the weekends.

And what part of the Constitution guarantees you a job? -- or the right to see your kids? -- or expediency? Just because you don't like something or something is inconvenient for you doesn't mean you can cry about the Constitution being violated.

The Constitution doesn't care whether you're employed. (Neither do I, but that's irrelevant.) The Constitution also doesn't guarantee you many of the things you apparently think it does.

Is it the Constitution's fault that you chose to work for a certain business and that business requires you to fly? Do you take any responsibility for any choices in your life? What if you and your wife want two boys and two girls, but you end up with four girls? Is that the Constitution's fault?

Like I said in my first post:

I would be ok with the body scanners when and only when the following circumstances are met:

1. They must be 100% radiation free. Until the technology comes about that allows the same result without using any more radiation than we get from say the sun, you can't subject the public to this.

2. Computer software should be determining the "aberrations" and flagging people as needing to be reviewed by a human. That subsequent review should be automatically be cropped to the area determined by the software algorithm to be an aberration. The aberrations create “Reasonable Suspicion / Probable Cause” and allow “search”. Until reasonable suspicion is met it is completely unconstitutional to infringe on my right to privacy.

Until this happens, I don’t care how much public safety is threatened; You can’t go down the road of “Guilty until proven innocent”, without providing the grease for the slippery slope that takes us to thought police, martial law, book burning, and other forms of enslavement and control by a big brother government. All these things are tools that can and will be abused in the future, and the only way to prevent their abuse to remember the principals on which this country was founded, arguably the chief one being Liberty

I'm not against security or scanners or even pat downs as long as there is established probable cause. With out the rule of law you might as well be running an Orwellian Dictatorship.

And what part of the Constitution guarantees you a job? -- or the right to see your kids? -- or expediency? Just because you don't like something or something is inconvenient for you doesn't mean you can cry about the Constitution being violated.

The Constitution doesn't care whether you're employed. (Neither do I, but that's irrelevant.) The Constitution also doesn't guarantee you many of the things you apparently think it does.

Is it the Constitution's fault that you chose to work for a certain business and that business requires you to fly? Do you take any responsibility for any choices in your life? What if you and your wife want two boys and two girls, but you end up with four girls? Is that the Constitution's fault?

It doesn't guarantee any of that it guarantees this:

the 4th amendment to the Constitution of the United States:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and Warrants shall not be issued, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

It establishes Liberty, which you're apparently against.

Where have I ever even intimated that the Constitution guarantees me anything? You're explicitly stating that business travelers have a choice, and I'm explicitly stating that you're oversimplifying and full of @!$%#.

I'm also explicitly stating that the policy is bull@!$%#. It wouldn't have helped catch the people on 9-11. It wouldn't have helped catch the underwear bomber. It wouldn't have helped catch the shoe bomber.

It's here to give a false sense of security to drones, aka "Security Theater". It doesn't make people safer, so it's a waste of all of our time and money. I suspect still that the main motivations here aren't to do anything about terrorism (other than aforementioned false sense of security), but to continue the Federal Government's war on drugs and to attempt to find large amounts of hard currency moving around the country.

I have no clue what your regurgitated "do I take responsibility" talking points are referencing.

You say the feds are wiping their feet on constitutional protections. The Constitution says (and the Supreme Court -- that body that you've heard of but are unfamiliar with -- agrees) that Congress has the right to regulate commerce.

Your condescension isn't going far to make your point. But to address it:

Yes, they do have the right to regulate commerce. Doing illegal and unconstitutional searches without probable cause is not "regulating commerce".

I'm also explicitly stating that the policy is bull@!$%#. It wouldn't have helped catch the people on 9-11. It wouldn't have helped catch the underwear bomber. It wouldn't have helped catch the shoe bomber.

It's here to give a false sense of security to drones, aka "Security Theater". It doesn't make people safer, so it's a waste of all of our time and money. I suspect still that the main motivations here aren't to do anything about terrorism (other than aforementioned false sense of security), but to continue the Federal Government's war on drugs and to attempt to find large amounts of hard currency moving around the country.

I've never suggested that the scans and/or body searches are the least bit effective. For all I know, they're a ridiculous waste of time. What I have been saying -- and what no one can refute -- is that this IS NOT a 4th Amendment issue. You CHOOSE to fly. If you don't like the procedures, DON'T FLY.

I have no clue what your regurgitated "do I take responsibility" talking points are referencing.

Unfortunate. If you understood that, you might understand why this is not a 4th Amendment issue.

Doing illegal and unconstitutional searches without probable cause is not "regulating commerce". [sic]

So doing illegal and unconstitutional searches with probable cause is okay? Hahahaha.

It seems obvious to everyone but you, that once probable cause is established the searches are both legal and constitutional.

But since I, or even others, are not sure you have any grasp of the meaning of the 4th amendment, or what probable cause, based on your odd comments, I'll leave it as.

Wow you are an idiot.

so are you

I know you are; but what am I?

childish

TSA =Transportation Sexual Assault

there's also TSAHOLES kinda pack things in nut shell.

new TEA party. Touched Enough Already. ;)

so how many american planes have been blown up by terrorist bombs?

all i can find is a few russian planes in 04, and an indian plane in 85.

we got a gun in the cockpit now, so the boxcutters wont work, and a metal detector can snag those. there are no flipping bombs.

"TSA = totally stupid as*ho*es"

SIESTASIS = Stupid Ignorant Example of Supremely and Totally Asinine and Silly Incompetent Statements.

Can you believe SIESTASIS actually got 12 votes for this childishness ?

Do we prefer that TSA just disappear, or only do a cursory glance at our carry-ons? I'm sure this will be fine with many posters, until the next plane goes down. Then it will be "Why wasn't TSA doing their job!?" I don't like the idea of pat-downs or x-ray vision, but when you have people hiding explosives in their underwear, what is a realistic alternative?

yeah i hope they totally disappear. here's a prime example of you new brown shirts.

i believe you have a life time membership to the lemming and suckers club.you believe in a sense of false safety,and security or pseudo as i like to to call it, because the government and brown shirts TSAHoles tell you so.you like being groped molested, feltup, and even increasing your chances for getting cancer and being an exhibit in pornography in the great porno scanner.in otrherr words you don't mind having your ass hang out., especially if your a frequent flyer or are in business class.you like the idea of having your 4th amendment rights made crap out of and blatantly gone against, stomped on and told that this bull crap doesn't affect their rights.

yup Bravo SIESTASIS, your word describes TSAHOLES to a perfect tee.by you making fun of SIESTASIS you sir or madam are making a blatant fool out of yourself because you sir or madam have been used, sucker punched, abused, disrespected, molested, and had.all in the disguise of PSEUDO SAFETY brought to you by the idiots and nut cases if the United States Government,and their lackies,the Brown Shirts or let me change that to Blue TSAHOLES.your not too bright.

"Do we prefer that TSA just disappear,..."

Yep...

If you think these measures are keeping you safe then you are very badly ill informed. It is all show folks, I fly all of the time for business and believe me it is all show. Get a clue. If you have not flown in the past three weeks you have no idea of what you speak. The only ones being "felt up" are the elderly with metal implants and the very few that are selected for special screenings and these are not pulled based on any profile but just randomlyl. It is all stupid, just another govt. agency trying to make us think they are looking out for the gullible American public.

srf22204.....Will you be any less dead if a "terrorist bomber " decides that a group of a few hundred people waiting in lines to be scanned at an airport makes a good target and detonates his vest right in the middle of all of you ???

What is it that makes you all think they have no other plan, no other way to wreak havoc and devastation on Americans than to bring down an aircraft ???

By the same token if you are that afraid of terrorists please stay home and let the rest of us Americans enjoy our freedom.

Mike,

OMG! The sky is falling...the sky is falling. How many "terrorist" plots have TSA foiled? Yep...none! They find toothpaste and shampoo that doesn't conform to their stupid volume restrictions but I've gotten on planes with my Leatherman and bic lighter...

TSA agents are nothing but over-payed and under-worked government scourge...

Hey srf - TSA has absolutely nothing to do with TERRORISM!! IT'S ALL ABOUT MONEY AND CONTROL!! If safety was such a concern, there are trained dogs who can spot a terrorist in seconds without all this bullsh*t!!! Flying is just a form of transportation and SHOULDN'T BE USED AS INTIMIDATION, FORCE AND ABUSE!!! So cowards such as yourself should get a little more educated, and lose the donkey mindset!!!!

If your not willing to support the constitution, please find another country to live in.

If your not willing to support the constitution, please find another country to live in.

This.

An unreasonable search, prohibited in the Bill of Rights, does not stop being an unreasonable search just because it's done by the TSA.

It's like our Constitution doesn't apply anymore when the issue is terrorism.

If you're not willing to even SPEAK UP in support of the Bill of Rights, then please don't live in the USA.

This is America. If you don't like the fact that our government shouldn't have to fondle us in the name of security, why don't you just move to a country where it's OK for the government to do this to you?

To all you jail house lawyers: The 4th Amendment of the constitution reads:

" The right of the people to be secure in their Persons, papers and effects against unreasonable searches AND seizures shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue but upon probable cause supported by oath or affirmation and particularly describing the place to be searched and the person or things to be seized."

The only things that would be seized by these searches are items that you cannot take on the plane or illegal items.

For all the "protesters" who plan on trying to slow the process down,there is a simple solution to handle them. Set up a separatearea for them to be hand searched. This way the "normal" people can get on with their travel. If these other fools miss their flights because they wanted to be stupid, so be it.

If you do not like the security measures you "may
have to endure, DRIVE!!

Sorry, Corsair, but you cannot seperate search from seizure.

Without probable cause, there can be neither without violating the 4th Amendment.

Otherwise, they could search - but NOT seize - and still act on illegally obtained information. Otherwise, literally thousands of cases would NOT have been thrown out of court for improper search.

The act of having bought a plane ticket and shown up at an airport does NOT establish probable cause for the vast, vast majority of people.

We will agree to disagree on that.

One other thing that seems to be missing here is that when you buy your ticket and arrive at the airport, you have implied consent to have you and your belongings searched.

Whether or not the searches they are doing are excessive is not for the individual traveller to say. If someone is not happy about it, bring about a suit and let the courts handle it.

If you want to make sure that the flight is safe, try going the other way: give everyone a knife when they board and no one will try to hijack the plane.

This is not an issue of modesty.

This is an issue of refusing to submit and obey.

They want us to be good little sheep and docilely shuffle to whatever tune they sing.

The TSA is telling us to STFU and get in line while they "protect" us cowards from the big bad terrorists.

The Underwear bomber was stopped by the Passengers!

9-11 could have been stopped by the passengers if they had been forewarned. Remember flight 93? I'd say we are bloody well forewarned!

I agree with the man from Boston...

Give everyone a baseball bat when boarding the plane. No frikkin' coward terrorist will stand up to a plane full of passengers with baseball bats...and if they did, I'd love to be on that plane...swingin' for a home-run, guaranteed!

Carl W, did it not occur to you that the purpose for the 9/11 attacks WAS to destroy the constitution. The Bush family couldn't be tighter with the Arabs unless of course they were to Adopt Obama. After one attack, no matter how terrible it was, Bush decided after after per suing an illegal war to take the stance of cowering in thew corner as he worked to shift the balance of power from the voting, taxpaying Americans to his cronies and contributors. Those accepting of this latest tactic are still living in LALA land, and I just hope they wake up soon, and realize that what it means to be an American is not at the whim of this government. Leadership is a responsibility, not a privilege.

srf22204 (&) corsair82 - Of course we support measures, just not these measures! Effective and lawful action, to include the OPT OUT! boycott, taken by American travelers about this issue will result in TSA rethinking their security measures, or lose contracts to private companies, as proposed by Congressman Mica of Florida.

Why was a consideration to implement a nationwide TSA trained K9 force to effectively fight terrorism not part of the equation? How many terrorists are going to battle a trained canine with huge teeth?

They must be working since we have not had a plane crash into a building since the Government started TSA. Think about people.

badrod...

uhhh, better rethink that one...there have been at least two, Fla. and Texas, I believe.

The one in Texas was a single engine prop, privately owned plane that was flown into the federal building because of a pissed off tax payer. He would not have been subjected to the same "procedures" due to private ownership.

same for the one in Florida. A guy flew a single-engine Cessna into a multistory building. I remember the pic of the plane's body still sticking out.

The important point here being, of course, that we've proved light planes aren't much of a terrorist threat. An aluminum 2000 lb plane at maybe 150 mph is about as dangerous as someone crashing their pickup truck into the building. You can maybe kill a few people that way, but you aren't destroying any offfice buildings or schools with one.

What if it was full of explosives someone asked? Light planes can't carry much weight. A large pickup can still carry many times as much.

/former private pilot, and miss it a lot.

Noelle:

You absolutely have the right to opt out as you say. For all of those wishing to opt out of the scan and be hand searched, please stand to the side and let those that have no problem with the measures continue on our way. You and the rest may stand in a long line and maybe miss your flight. For me I do not care. I will be in the air relaxing.

As far as those of you who do not wish to submit to either method, may leave the airport and enjoy your drive.

As far as private companies taking over, the same measures will be taken sine this is a Federal contract and the Fed will set the standards, not the private companies.

corsair82, my implied consent; no such thing, it's pure governmental authoritarianism that you're willing to justify and consent to on my behalf because of your fear of the unknown, an implied fear. I fly often and I'm put off by the fact that I have to add hours on to my already cumbersome travel time just because someone might do something to harm people somewhere in the world. If I were truly that concerned about being harmed I'd never get behind the wheel of my car because someone somewhere is more likely to unintentionally cause me harm on the way to the airport; for heavens sake, man up and stop being such a pansy!

The Constitution promises Freedom, not Imortality. Learn to handle a little risk.

It's not a matter of agreeing to disagree, Corsair. The Constitution is very specific, as has been it's application, as far as illegal search and seizure. You can have one without the other, but neither by itself is lawful. Whether search leads to seizure or not is irrelevant and there is court precedent for that.

You can, however, claim that the TSA abandoning the concept of probable cause in favor of treating all passengers as suspected criminals doesn't violate the 4th Amendment. You would be wrong, but you can claim it.

There are already lawsuits in the works over this.

No, SIE has it about 99% correct. TSA is worthless...good at finding that terrible toothpaste but miss my leatherman every time...idiots!

Even their rules don't make sense. They did not let me take my less-than-one-inch-long nail clippers (that fall apart if you look at them funny), but a dozen ten-inch-long, fully sharpened pencils were no problem at all.

thats exactly it...they don't have to fly. So if you don't want the extra security measures to ensure your safety DRIVE.

I agree with you about the TSA, rude, ignorant and on a power trip. There seems to be not one ounce of consistancy from one airport to another when it comes to the screening process. When was the last time the TSA found "anything" on someone going through screening? Give me a break!!!!!!!!

By the way, I have a metal plate and screws in my leg, never has the metal detector gone off, but leave small change in your pocket and that's another story.

It is obvious that you have not flown out of DC Reagan, ST Louis Lambert or many of the other airports where screener who are suppose to be checking the x-rayed baggage are chatting with co-workers, eating, etc.

srf...

C'mon, you're a TSA employee aren't you? TSA is just another bloated government agency who's workers are fat, lazy, and under-worked...much like most other government agencies/workers.

No. The TSA is made up of uneducated Government employees who violate the Fourth Amendment on a regular basis. They do NOTHING to keep the public safe, they never have and never will. They provide nothing more than a theatrical production for the masses to serve as another means of control for the gutless American public.

You people have no clue...get with the program...I bet you tried to get a job with TSA and they turned you down. TSA employees have to have top security clearance, back ground check, fingerprinted and credit check...lets see if you can get that...I think not. Most of TSA are retired military, retired police officers, and at least have a Bachelor Degree from a University, can you say the same?

badrod...

where do you get your misguided information? Most are educated? Man, there's a comedian in every crowd...

BTW...no problem w/ the security/FBI check...have been checked out many times...credit check, no problem...finger printed, yep, every time I purchase a weapon...degree, yep, got that one covered as well. So you see, there's nothing special about the clowns at TSA...

From which airport did you have your worst experience?

Balrod - are you serious? Obviously you have your eyes closed when you walk through security at the airport. The overweight, four foot tall black woman is ex-military? The 6'5" tall, 100 pound guy with the inch thick glasses is an ex-cop? I won't even start with the Bachelor's Degree statement.

This is nothing more than an attempt by the government to make you FEEL safe. Those scanners and the pat down will NOT detect the non-metalic explosive located in the terrorist's body cavity.

NOT, we are held back and go thru the new enhanced procedures. You do not know what you are talking about. Six flights since the new procedures and still" felt up each time" even thoug it is only knee implants.

Absolutely NOT TRUE: I _DO— have a card, stating that I have a knee replacement. It has NOT done me a bit of good over the last few years - always get scanned with their little metal detector, in front of the world. However, last May was a whole new ballgame... After waiting for 45 minutes for a female TSA (who was obviously at lunch, and certainly not happy about being called to the gate), I received what must have certainly been the early-training version of their new method of scanning - the metal detector was used for the groin area - I was wearing jeans, the detector was literally jabbed into my crotch! I was astounded, but late for the gate and did not feel that calling a supervisor would be beneficial (after all, it had taken 45 minutes to even get this TSA person to come and do her job!). The intimidation level, at this point, was a major factor. I was "felt" all over, breasts were thoroughly searched by touching, all this, even tho the metal detector obviously was only sounding at the right knee (as my medical card from the doctor indicates.) And this was all done in a glass-cage in full view of all coming through the security checkin. I was so embarrassed and cannot bring myself to go through this again - at this point, I do not intend to fly again if I can help it. Interestinly, I already have FBI clearance for my job, they could easily profile me in that manner and eliminate putting me throught the public embarassment. I am sure that this is true for many women my age with my health issues. I am a 63-year old grandmother, this happened at Tampa, Southwest gates on a Saturday in May of 2010.

What about people with ostomies? How are they going to prove the liquid in the ostomy pouch is really urine or feces?

My father had a hip transplant, has a card stating as much, and is flagged EVERY SINGLE TIME.

You're just plain wrong, srf, and it doesn't appear anyone believes you. You can stop simpering now.

It is both. It is a waste of time to keep checking the elderly with metal implants and letting young mideast men flying on one way tickets with no luggage and paid for with cash flying thru security with no enhanced checking. It is all show to make you feel safe. Well you are not, not unitl they start expending their energy on profiling, x-raying cargo and pre screening before we get to the airport.

Yes, and while they are checking the front door. The back door is open. When will they react to the UPS cargo plot - next year? All cargo must be x rayed. It took them a year to react to the underwear bomb plot.

I agree with SIE. It's both. For one thing, had they got the scanner right the first time and not lied about them storing images and being connected on a network, they wouldn't be in this sh*t storm now. Granted, any semi-intelligent person would have known they were lying from the start but the fact remains, they still lied.

Now, because of that, we're forced to have pat downs since nobody wants their scanner image ending up on facebook or part of some secret psychopath's erotic collection.

What took so long?

I just saw Matt Lauer's interview of John Pistole on the Today Show as well. To sum it up, TSA is in full spin mode and Matt was throwing Pistole softball questions (as usual).

Sadly, nothing will change at TSA.

Why do you watch the Today show if you think NBC is in the government's pocket? Watch another morning show and stop complaining....whine...whine...whine...Where are you flying for Thanksgiving?

It is not keeping you safe. Don't buy the "kool-aid" being fed you by TSA. Do some research and you will determine that it is all smoke and mirrors. God are we a gullible population. "Well a govt agency said so it must be true".

Hey Johnson, Guess your just another donkey who believes this set up will really help you. Why not do some research first and get educated before embarrassing yourself!!! Trained dogs can spot a terrorist immediately. There is no excuse for the government to force: INTIMIDATION, ABUSE, HUMILITY for folks using a form of TRANSPORTATION!! HOW MANY PLANES HAVE BEEN BLOWN TO SMITHERINES IN THE LAST 10 YEARS??? HUH???

johnson, fortunately this country is full of people who would prefer to see their rights as guaranteed by the Constitution protected, in this case the 4th Amendment, maintain a dedication to the concept of innocent until proven guilty and will fight unwarranted searchs without probable cause that violate all of those concepts.

We're not willing to give up those rights and freedoms to allow cowards a false sense of security - the cowards are not worth it.

"Those who would sacrifice liberty for a brief moment of security will have, and deserve, neither."

Do you feel safer knowing that the most of the terrorists started their journeys from overseas? Once they enter the country they are not subject to further scrutiny.

More machines and invasive techniques are not the answer. A layered defense is the only effective security protocol. But the TSA has it all jacked up. If they had a solid method they should be able to respond with a tweak here or there to keep the attackers on their toes not the other way around. The policy they have right now is a patchwork mess with gaping holes.

If they have a braincell in their head they would put dog teams out in front to sniff out the explosives before they even check their bags while the handlers look for suspicious activity. If they see anything they can be subjected to stupid questions to gauge their threat or stiffer searches.

Griper you are WRONG!! you must not have ever had to connect to a domestic flight from an overseas flight. The order is immigration, baggage claim, customs with all baggage checked and unchecked in your presence, recheck checked baggage, rescreen at security with carry-ons as if you just arrived off the street.

I am getting tired of arguing with undereducated people who do not understand the bigger constitutional issue at stake here... To make you feel 'better': You are1000000 times more likely to be killed by a stranger on the way to the airport in your car/taxi whatever then you are on a plane.
This is not about modesty or being stubborn, this is about allowing the TSA to strip away our rights (rights that are guaranteed by the constitution to protect us from the tyranny of the government and its agents. ) in the name of safety. Even if these new procedures actually made anyone safer -- and they don't-- People are still not going to quietly tear up the constitution and allow it. I think it is truly wonderful to see people upset and standing up for their rights against the TSA. to me is signals that democracy is not dead and we still have patriots left who are willing to make some hard choices and not allow our rights to be trampled all over. I am very truly sorry you feel your fears of terrorist warrant stripping away my 4th amendment rights but hear me now, I will not stand idly by and allow it and neither will what looks like a majority of Americans. I am proud of them.

Here are some odds lifted from the net :
1 in 88,000 of a terrorist attack
1 in 650,000 Chance of dying in a terrorist attack while visiting a foreign country:
1 in 1,500,00 of a terrorist-caused shopping mall disaster assuming one such incident a week and you shop two hours a week
1 in 55,000,000 in a terrorist-caused plane disaster
1 in 55,928 of death by lightening
1 in 20,605 in your clothes igniting
1 in 10,455 of dying in your bathtub
1 in 10,010 by falling from a ladder or scaffolding
1 in 9,396 due to excessive heat
1 in 8,389 due to excessive cold
1 in 7,972 in a drowning accident
1 in 6,842 in a railway accident.
1 in 197 of dying in a homicide
1 in 299 of dying in an assault from a firearm
1 in 5,330 of dying in an assault by hanging or strangulation
1 in 207,261 in operations of war.
Chance of dying from an assault: 1 in 16,421
Chance of dying from a car accident: 1 in 18,585
Chance of dying from any kind of fall: 1 in 20,666
Chance of dying from accidental drowning: 1 in 79,065
Chance of dying from exposure to smoke, fire, and flames: 1 in 81,524
Chance of dying in an explosion: 1 in 107,787

As you can see you need to be worried about other things killing you.

People who are so scared that they're willing to give up the Constitutional Rights that belong to ALL of us, should stay home. (I hear they have some of these scanners in vans so you can stay home and get the scan too!)

STAY AT HOME AND BE QUIET.

No, you can get out, though.

Those of us with dignity and respect for ourselves and the Constituion will stay and do the heavy lifting.

AmericanWoman.....awesome post.

american woman very few of the things you listed have the capacity to destory thousands of live in a single instant as when an airplane is used as a weapon, your right all of those statsics are are correct ..but is even one time worth the lives of up to 500 passengers and property damage from a single instant.

the attacks on the towers werent just about striking terror or fear , it was about showing us that the U.S. is not exempt from thier endevours

even if it doesnt happen for another 10 yrs ..then that means the security mmeasure we are using are working at least until we have to devise new methods to keep up with thier methods of trying to destroy things .

they told us after the attacks that this kind of reaction would occur that we would just go back to business as usual.. and they would find thier way back in once we did .

the t.s.a. and others are trying to make sure that doesnt happen ..and as much of an inconvienence as this is ..and as sloppy a job that the t.s.a. is doing ...i think for me that a small price to pay to keep people safe so that we can travel about this country freely.

in other countries you cant even go to another state with out having your i.d. checked everytime you cross a state border, that's not just in russia !

I don’t care how much public safety is threatened; You can’t go down the road of “Guilty until proven innocent”, without providing the grease for the slippery slope that takes us to thought police, martial law, book burning, and other forms of enslavement and control by a big brother government. All these things are tools that can and will be abused in the future, and the only way to prevent their abuse to remember the principals on which this country was founded, arguably the chief one being Liberty.

Is this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6ByKOhAhsU what you really want to feel safe Leslie d????

Did this little girl getting felt up make you feel safer?

right on Sybr, agree!
Leslie , sweety I can tell that you don't get it hon so go ahead and cower in the corner and wait for a terrorist to go after you. Oh and while you are waiting you have a 200:1 shot at being murderd by one of your fellow americans...... I am just sayin

Amen

You are not listening. They are only patting down "feeling up" those who set off the metal scanners that set off for metal only. And a few at random selected passengers. Everybody else gets a pass. So lets do this real easy.

1) Terriorist with plastic explosive concealed on his person. No metal. Chances of getting the enhanced screening 1-500 at the best. Nice odds.

2) Your grandmother with an aritificial hip. Chances of getting the enhanced "feel up" 100%.

Now how is that keeping anyone safe?

Why not use exposive sniffing dogs, having travelors move their hands over a pad that detects explosive residue. x-raying all cargo on passenger planes. Back ground check on flyers. I could probably come up with another dozen methods and I am not a security exper.

You are correct,,,you are NO security expert. Dogs sniffing on everyone, background checks? Talk about intrusive. I see here that you were one a member of the Greenpeace..come with us you are commies and we have ways of handing people like you.

Oh grow up

WHT3 - You must not have a job since you have an issue with background checks, am I right? EVERY job I've had (mostly the military) does background checks so it's safe to assume that most jobs do it. As far as the dogs go, there are already drug sniffing dogs, you got a problem with the pooch??

For bomb residue the pad thing is a good idea, or maybe a q-tip swab of the palm, drop it in a chemical and see if it detects explosives. Marry that with a down draft (not updraft) blower to knock some particles off your clothes as you walk through the metal detector (or revised x-ray scanner). Also, since explosives usually have a different temperature than we do and, a nervous person/terrorist will have a higher body temperature use thermal cameras placed inside the airport to look for those abnormalities. It's a simple, effective, and non-intrusive system.

WHT, you're failing on mulitple levels.

First of all, in the case of drug dealers, police CANNOT simply frisk somone standing on a street corner for drugs. There MUST be probable cause - or the search is illegal and won't hold up in court, assuming something is found. Probable cause is a main missing ingredient here - there is NO probable cause to suspect that 99.99% of the passengers flying in this country are potential terrorist threats. NONE.

The rights of all of those people to be secure in their persons from unecessary search are violated, looking for the .01% that MIGHT be up to something. And I think I'm overstating that percentage drastically. We've had two attempted bombers caught in the last decade who would have been caught via profiling - and hundreds of millions of people have flown.

Profiling does NOT include race by necessity. It includes criminal records, travel records, method of ticket purchase, country of origin, country of visa/passport issuance, etc. etc. It works, and we are too politically correct to use it - AT ALL.

As has been mentioned, your issue with background checks is bogus. They're done routinely in virtually EVERY other walk of life - applying for a loan, a job, buying a car, etc etc etc. If you want to work at a school - in ANY capacity, including cafeteria, crosssing guard, etc etc etc. - you will have a full background check done, including fingerprints.

And finally, the 4th Amendment of the Consitution is more important than false security. That's probably the most important point you're not getting.

WHT3, "You need every means available and be able to change the methodology instantly to avoid the terrorist..." you're not serious are you, since when have you ever seen a federal agency do anything instantaniously, with exception of course to spending more than we as a nation can afford? Honestly, it would be cheaper to issue everyone a tazer at the gate and hope that some idiot tries someting stupid. We'd light him up like the energizer bunny before he could get his hands off their shoes, schivies, or whatever! Empower the people not the government!

WTH - most drug smugglers are caught by - you guessed it - intelligence. The cops go out and do their job which is watching, listening and asking. They DON'T search everyone. Besides most drug smugglers don't use the airlines.

What is really scary is that you are on a plane with a Fox News watcher.

You must not be from America, here we value our freedom.

Worried about terrorists, by all means stay home and let the Nanny Government take care of you.

I agree with Sietasis. Just imagine how slow the lines will be when all the baby boomers start getting pacemakers and artificial knees and hips, and they all have to have a pat down. It should be relatively simple to pinpoint the metal through wanding or the scanner, so if there were a prescreening procedure which designates the location of the metal on some kind of card that would be hard to forge, the scanner would just confirm that there is nothing else on the body. Then us old folks could stop being targeted by a system that should be looking elsewhere for targets.

1. While passengers are subjected to this, luggage is screened not all CARGO is. You may feel safer that your bottom was felt up, but you have no idea what is UNDER your bottom on the plane.

2. Scanners see only to the skin, they do not see into body cavities. If you think a terrorist would never do something like that, remember they don't care where it goes.

@Miss Linda-What you apparently don't understand is that with the rape of Medicare that is going to happen most old people probably won't have pacemakers or artificial joints because they are too expensive and they will be expected to take pain pills per Mr. Obama's comments earlier this year. I remember him telling a woman that her mother should have taken pain pills instead of receiving a pacemaker. Of course, pain pills won't treat arrhythmia, but what the heck.

agree.

Passengers are groped, luggage is scanned, but not all cargo going onto passenger planes it.

These scans only show skin, not body cavities.

It is a proven facts that people from "countries of interest" cross our borders.

Israel's planes aren't blown up because EVERY ONE IS STRIP SEARCHED. I know because I traveled there and every single passenger was strip searched......I didn't mind, as long as I thought we were safe. When was the last time a terrorist was arrested on an El AL flight?

Do some of you have any brain cells at all? Either fly or don't fly. I don't care. Just stop complaining about people who are hired to keep us safe. If you hate it, drive your car, stay at home or go by Greyhound.

ikie:

how about you stop defending unconstitutional and immoral(not to mention unsanitary) search tactics. If someone is on a watch list or raises red flags, that's one thing. ASSuming everyone is guilty, is ASSinine.

If you are so fearful of terrorists(when there hasn't been any bombers that left from US airports) that you think these types of screenings are necessary, then YOU STAY HOME.

I get groped every time I fly because I've got a metal knee, even though they always wand me first, and it only reacts to my knee. I'm 70 years old, and neither I nor the TSA agents enjoy my groping. They clearly have been given idiotic guidelines. I hate it, and btw I also hate Fox News.

WHT3 why are you assuming it's people who watch Fox News? Go spend some time on message boards there.

illegal and unconstitutional? Are you so worried about having hands placed on you? Are you a freak who thinks that someone touching you is sexual harassment? You must be a lonely, lonely person. You wil reconsider flying when the stupidity stops? You will never fly again because jihadists will never stop trying to scare you into NOT flying.

pure: and you must be the "freak" that loves to be groped by strangers.

I don't want my kid to be fondled or xrayed(unless medically necessary).

When they(the government/TSA start paying for our flights, then they can freely implement whatever search techniques they want to.

How about flights with the olders screening techniques for the rational people, and separate flights with the the prison search screenings for those who are fearful of being free Americans.

Yeah, the TSA hires perverts with the sole intention of groping people like you! Someone said it earlier, when you buy a ticket you enter into a contract with the airline. If airliners are being targeted you should submit to the search. Know what, @!$%# you, dont fly. Let the airlines fall, go bankrupt. Part of our GDP will fall and our country will fall. Would you rather have armed guards walking around roughing up any guy in a robe who is acting suspicious and sweating? OH NO! That would be PROFILING. And that would be WRONG. What the @!$%# do you want? What is YOUR solution.

So its okay to have your child groped by a doctor? What if the doctor is a pedophile? Its still okay then right?

Separate flights? The terrorists would start flying on those flights too! You sir are a foolish person. Free Americans. You're free to be an idiot!

Pure(BS):

The solution is dogs, drug sniffing machines, and background checks on everyone flying from known terrorist harboring countries.

You are actually going to compare a doctor(who we choose/pay to check our health) vs. a TSA agent who has no training in anatomy or health? That's ignorance on your part.

I don't mind a full body pat down for myself, I don't think my kid should have to go through it unless there is reasonable suspicion he is carrying something. The TSA agents better change gloves after each person they touch(especially after feeling around inside the waistband).

Most of us can see who the "idiot" is in here(look in the mirror).

Can you say baaaa baaaa baaaa, one more time?

Hey, you're the one talking about layin on of hands. Doctors can be pedophiles too!

I agree, use dogs.

I also agree your kid shouldnt have to submit.

I see no problem with pat-downs overall.

You still leave out the fact that we get to choose our doctors(and can do background checks on them BEFOREHAND).

I don't know the TSA employees history, and I don't know if the last person they searched(inside waistbands) have any kind of communicable germs/STDs/crabs.

Guys this isn't about modesty, it is about unreasonable search and seizure , which violates our 4th amendment rights. Get out of the weeds.

And as someone else on here kindly pointed out, if that few people are actually getting the pat-downs, are they really even effective or necessary?

But if they keep saying it, it'll become true. Govt learned that from the media. ;)

Did you see the oriental man dressed like an old grandpa....looked real.

Beside the people of America didn't want us to discriminate and profile...So this is what you get, be careful what you ask for sometimes you just might get it.

Yeah you're right. The military and law enforcement thought of this plan. In no way is the government the one that decides the rules, regulations, and procedures. I bet you spit on the vietnam vets when they got back, you're one of those people, huh? Everything is the militaries fault and when you get pulled over for speeding the cop is wrong for doing it.

The TSA employees are civilians, almost none of them have prior military experience. The ones that do were mostly clerical non combat arms or support roles. They went in off the streets, got hired, and now they are government employees. Get your info right before blasting me or any of my friends in the military.

john doe in my opinion nobody was blasting your friends, stupid, they were blasting the military mindset (you know the geniuses at the pentagon) and if that offends you maybe it should so why don't you go work on getting the info straight or is that a bit of a stretch for your limited reading skills

From every interview I've read/heard from this Einstein...he's not going to change his "perfect" policy no matter what. What's even worse is that it's blowing up in his face and he refuses to even consider that maybe he was wrong and over-reacted to what he perceived was a valid threat.

I've got an even better idea for you Mr. Pistole...why don't you put many of your goons out on the docks searching shipping containers...since over 90% of those will never be searched. Don't know...but you might find Chinese nationals being smuggled in...explosives being smuggled in or nothing at all. This way...the goons can exercise all the perceived power they want and actually protect the country.

I'm real sure the military didn't have anything to do with this planning. It's the darn lawyers, liberals, and Congress that have caused this whole mess. Let me explain: 1)If they used a "grown up" mind set, we would be behavior profiling instead of exraying everyone and playing with their genitals, butts, and breasts. 2) DHS would have never been built, if Congress would have done their jobs and conducted oversight of the intelligence community as required. Instead of creating this monster. But they would rather get pay offs from the lobbists. 3) I'm not going to continue - our government is just making me tired - - - - - - - - - - because they won't use their brains.

So, John Dope, I'm guessing you're a teabagger, with poor reading comprehension. The TSA is law enforcement, teabagger. The military reference was thrown in for comparitive clarity. And, in typical teabagger fashion, you managed to turn that into some imaginary screed against the military. Unlike you, teabagger, I was military. Try again.

Are really, really, so uninformed and easily-manipulated as to believe that this mess is a creation of the current administration?

No - It's a creation of Congress. And their lack of doing what they're paid by us to do. Of course, we don't pay them enough, so the lobbyists have stepped up to help them, and us (?), out.

The searches are a different matter. I know a couple of people who've been through the new "pat down" procedure already, and frankly if it was a stranger on a public street doing it, you'd easily be able to get them arrested for sexual assault. Random screening means that TSA can't identify actual terrorists, so they want to scare them into not even trying.

This is exactly right.

Sexual assault doesn't stop being sexual assault just because it's done by a TSA worker.

Seems like the ACLU should have a pretty easy lawsuit here.

Well if they're trying to 'scare' the terrorists into not blowing a plane up, that's laughable. I've seen guys like that have a .50 rip part of their shirt to pieces and keep on going like nothing even happened. They don't flinch or even turn to see what happened.

I hope the TSA doesn't think random pat downs will scare them. We're finished if that's the case.

Random screening means that TSA can't identify actual terrorists, so they want to scare them into not even trying.

Can't have this logic being used...since many of these rent-a-cops have finally got a reason for living...making the rest of our lives more difficult while they get their jollies. Everyone of them are remembering when their grandparent got onto them...so now it's their turn...so your grandmother is going to be groped and humiliated for their nightmares of childhood.

TSA was not even in operation on 9/11/2001. DHS and TSA were put in place after 9/11.

The TSA didn't exist on Sep. 11. The TSA was created as part of the Aviation and Transportation Security Act passed by the U.S. Congress, and signed into law by President George W. Bush on November 19, 2001. Originally organized in the U.S. Department of Transportation, the TSA was moved to the U.S. Department of Homeland Security on March 25, 2003.

The interesting sidebar on this is that if we had been routinely employing profiling, the terrorists who hijacked those planes may not have gotten on board in the first place.

The government's reaction has been just that - reaction. Nail clippers, files, pocket knives, anything usually inocuous, was outlawed on planes because the hijackers carried boxcutters. Reid tries and fails to blow up his shoe - everyone has to take their shoes off (he also would have been stopped at the gate via profiling). Plots are discovered using liquids - no one can bring a water bottle on the plane. And now this. A guy cooks his junk with a faulty, sweat-soaked bomb and we're all potentially subjected to intrusive patdowns. He, too, would have been stopped by effective profiling and never gotten on the plane in the first place.

I couldn't agree more. Profiling would spare everyone else the hassle. The only reason grandparents and kids are subjected to pat downs is to prove we don't profile. El Al has more threats against it and less problems because they do exactly that. And if there's any question, the person DOESN'T FLY. What's even more annoying is to be the person singled out for more checks while several people who fit the profile and with whom I would not want to fly, walk by with barely a glance.

Walk this through your mind - your teenage son or daughter and your wife are going to "felt up" by a "eoe" employee ... were this to happen on the street you'd shoot the SOB's ... (if you have any huevos) ... we need to grow a pair and de-nut the perverts we elected last election ...

one joke I saw read: TSA will handle more balls than Barney Frank ..." hurt myself laughing ... sad but true

to the best of my knowledge I do not remember anyone mentioning as part of the Obama "change" scheme - "we'll feel you . man..."

There were no bombs on the 9/11/2001 flights.

Now that I have had to give my e-mail address to make a comment, I suppose I will be 'traced' and 'labeled'. This whole issue is about slowly losing our rights and freedom. Wake up Americans, it is time to stop the Government from terrorizing us!

Remember Communism & Nazi Germany 'searches to go everywhere and show me your papers'. The whole TSA dept. should be disbanded! It is not about 'security', it is about losing your freedom.

Yes, and what about the Muslim women not requiring searches? So, does that make us the Terrorists?

Read Ron Paul's bill that he is proposing to stop the Scanning & Pat-downs. Sign it!

If the rent-a-cops had half a brain, they would have wondered why you need a box cutter on a flight. At least nail clippers and shampoo have a reasonable explanation. These are the same clowns TSA hired to "expedite the stand up", remember that?

TSA's workers (making $25K) have nothing to do with the rules. Those making $200K+ make the rules, along with Janet and Pistole and Obama. Why waste your breath with anyone making $25K?

Mark your point is taken - however it has been my experience that the less training the greater the opportunity for the " tough guy" syndrome ... "I may be the scanner person but I have the whole GD government behind me ..." so don't f*** with me pal ..." and I am sure that at their favorite pub they share stories of their "bring'n em down" ... quite frankly what else have they...?

And interestingly enough despot's depend on the collective ignorance of their minions ... they have hit the jackpot here ....